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griffey24
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06-12-2008, 04:06 AM
Post subject: I'm such a donk.. quasi deep... 5/10 with KK
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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-Villain in this hand is the same villain as in the QQ hand I posted. Alexos tells me that he did indeed change his screenname, so my reads from his other name are that he's pretty aggro in position and folds OOP
-The stats on his old screen-name are 20/17/4.66 TAGG
-I have no real relevant image at this table, once again we hadn't played any hands together yet on this day
-I took a very unconventional line this hand, and I normally just bet bet bet until I give a reason otherwise. 5% of the time I might take this line.
-Flop c/c was for pot control, since I really didn't feel like getting raised in this spot OOP for 150bb's deep. Turn donk-lead was to protect my hand against him checking through for another spade
Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $5/$10
6 players
Converter
Stack sizes:
Hero: $2002.50
UTG+1: $1000
CO: $1514.50
Button: $1074.27
SB: $1047
BB: $955
Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with  
Hero raises to $40, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, 3 folds.
Flop:    ($95, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $72, Hero calls.
Turn:  ($239, 2 players)
Hero bets $140, CO raises to $340, Hero regrets donk leading and...??
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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You played this extremely goofy but really absolutely fine, it actually seems like a pretty decent line. It's so goofy that it's an easy fold unless the opponent is very good at knowing what you're thinking.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
You played this extremely goofy but really absolutely fine, it actually seems like a pretty decent line. It's so goofy that it's an easy fold unless the opponent is very good at knowing what you're thinking.
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How do you think the fact that he probably knows I NEVER have a flush in this spot should influence my decision.
Cause it's probably very true that I'd rarely c/c flop with a FD instead of leading it myself.
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
You played this extremely goofy but really absolutely fine, it actually seems like a pretty decent line. It's so goofy that it's an easy fold unless the opponent is very good at knowing what you're thinking.
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Yah this sumed up my thoughts when Grif first showed me the hand... I fold w/out much thought. Now on the other hand, this guy is super aggro usually, so I prefer a line of bet flop, c/c turn, c/c river... obv depending on cards but as a general idea
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Alexos
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
You played this extremely goofy but really absolutely fine, it actually seems like a pretty decent line. It's so goofy that it's an easy fold unless the opponent is very good at knowing what you're thinking.
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Yah this sumed up my thoughts when Grif first showed me the hand... I fold w/out much thought. Now on the other hand, this guy is super aggro usually, so I prefer a line of bet flop, c/c turn, c/c river... obv depending on cards but as a general idea |
If you're trying to pot control OOP deep against an aggressive opponent, I'd say the flop is the MOST likely spot to get bluff raised, value raised or semi bluff raised. So betting the flop is asking for the pot to get bloated, moreso than leading the turn I'd imagine. It just so happens that I caught a really bad turn card, which will happen 20% of the time, that will very likely get value/bluff raised on the turn. But most other turn cards would result in him flatting most of his turn range I'd imagine.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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As played, is this really such an easy turn fold?
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MehFU
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 101
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dont understand why u chose to smooth call the flop rather than lead reraise all in or check reraise.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by MehFU
dont understand why u chose to smooth call the flop rather than lead reraise all in or check reraise.
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Didn't want to bloat the pot OOP this deep.
c/r might also blow him out of the pot. I usually lead in this spot, but this time just felt like c/c to mix it up.
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The Odds God
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 252
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If you c/c flop, c/c turn again. Villain probably thinks you very rarely have a flush when you donkbet turn so if he is aggro, he will autoraise you with air or his turn semibluffs. No, it is not an easy fold when you get raised but you will get raised a lot.
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The secret to success in poker is to rig the odds in your favor.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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I think this is a bad line to take against an aggressive thinking player. Because your line looks so fishy, he may decide to raise a wide range against you (which includes not only flushes and bluffs, but also hands worse than flushes but better than two kings), which puts you in a very difficult position. I think checking the turn is better since this might induce a double barrel bluff. If he checks behind, you have a strong value bet on a blank river.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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If i had KsK I obviously will c/c again on the turn.
I guess I decided to lead and make any of his air pay to draw to a spade, instead of allowing any rag spade a free draw to the river.
But I agree with the last few posts, that my donk lead here is gonna get raised by a wide range which sucks pretty hard.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Well, if it's right to make him pay on the turn, why is it right not to on the flop? I think a check-call on the flop is fine, and on the turn for the same reason. Making players pay to draw when you probably have the best hand is in general a good rule of thumb in poker, but it's not absolutely necessary, especially when giving free cards "seems like" the wrong play with your hand, and so helps conceal it.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
Well, if it's right to make him pay on the turn, why is it right not to on the flop? I think a check-call on the flop is fine, and on the turn for the same reason. Making players pay to draw when you probably have the best hand is in general a good rule of thumb in poker, but it's not absolutely necessary, especially when giving free cards "seems like" the wrong play with your hand, and so helps conceal it.
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Yah I guess my logic was that its somewhat possible he could have two spades, but it's definitely much more likely he has at least one spade. Hence me not minding c/c the flop but wanting to protect more on the turn.
But yah I guess he'll only spike 20% of the time anyhow.
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cowboyardee
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 66
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I'm just wondering if it would be bad to call that turn raise and then c/c the river barring another spade, Jack or Ace, since opp is likely enough to figure you don't have a flush and raise whatever is in his hand.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by cowboyardee
I'm just wondering if it would be bad to call that turn raise and then c/c the river barring another spade, Jack or Ace, since opp is likely enough to figure you don't have a flush and raise whatever is in his hand.
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Haha, well I'm wondering the same thing! Since this is the exact line I took, for better or for worse... 
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