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High stakes Holdem and the value of solid reads.

  
 
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ilikeaces86
Old 05-04-2005, 05:58 PM     Post subject: High stakes Holdem and the value of solid reads. #1 (permalink)  
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 Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

UTG ($596.6)
UTG+1 ($207.6)
UTG+2 ($916.95)
MP1 ($392.8)
MP2 ($320.2)
Hero ($716.05)
CO ($197.4)
Button ($843.7)
SB ($390.9)
BB ($181.8)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J, J. SB posts a blind of $2.
5 folds, Hero raises to $15, 1 fold, Button raises to $30, 2 folds, Hero calls $15.

Flop: ($66) T, A, 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $50, Hero raises to $150, Button folds.

Final Pot: $266

Results in white below:
No showdown. Hero wins $266.
 
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ilikeaces86
Old 05-04-2005, 06:00 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Button ($393)
SB ($725.05)
BB ($435)
UTG ($790.2)
MP ($1218.2)
Hero ($1096.9)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9, J. SB posts a blind of $3.
2 folds, Hero raises to $20, 2 folds, BB calls $14.

Flop: ($43) 2, 8, 2 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $30, BB raises to $60, Hero calls $30.

Turn: ($163) 7 (2 players)
BB bets $25, Hero calls $25.

River: ($213) 3 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $125, BB folds.

Final Pot: $338

Results in white below:
Hero has 9c Jc (one pair, twos).
Outcome: Hero wins $338.
 
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ilikeaces86
Old 05-04-2005, 06:03 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 Hand #5292815-7729 at Pahrump (No Limit Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 12/Apr/05 13:22:14

Louters10 is at seat 0 with $149.40.
ulikeaces is at seat 1 with $489.10.
Weston2004 is at seat 2 with $456.40.
on q lei is at seat 3 with $373.80.
doordie29 is at seat 4 with $213.70.
juicebird is at seat 5 with $387.70.
hawick1 is at seat 6 with $190.40.
Diegel is at seat 7 with $365.
iplaypoker45 is at seat 8 with $411.
maabus is at seat 9 with $399.60.
The button is at seat 8.

maabus posts the small blind of $2.
Louters10 posts the big blind of $4.

Louters10: -- --
ulikeaces: 2c 2s
Weston2004: -- --
on q lei: -- --
doordie29: -- --
juicebird: -- --
hawick1: -- --
Diegel: -- --
iplaypoker45: -- --
maabus: -- --

Pre-flop:

ulikeaces calls. Weston2004 calls. on q lei folds.
doordie29 folds. juicebird raises to $22. hawick1
folds. Diegel folds. iplaypoker45 folds. maabus
folds. Louters10 folds. ulikeaces calls.
Weston2004 folds.

Flop (board: Ah 8h Js):

ulikeaces checks. juicebird bets $54. ulikeaces
raises to $108. juicebird re-raises to $162.
ulikeaces goes all-in for $467.10. juicebird folds.
ulikeaces is returned $305.10 (uncalled).



Hand #5292815-7729 Summary:

$3 is raked from a pot of $378.
ulikeaces wins $375.

Possibly the best read of my life. I was 99% positive he had KK and I asked him later thats what he had.
 
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Grand_MasterB
Old 05-04-2005, 06:06 PM #4 (permalink)  
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How were you positive he had KK? had you been playing with him for a while or something? seeing his pattern?
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ilikeaces86
Old 05-04-2005, 06:12 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grand_MasterB
How were you positive he had KK? had you been playing with him for a while or something? seeing his pattern?
When I'm in the zone its almost like I can see their cards. Its hard to explain so many things that go into it. Betting pattern, how long he takes, table texture. Its a really hard thing to teach. You just have to learn how to "feel" it on your own.
 
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Grand_MasterB
Old 05-04-2005, 06:36 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grand_MasterB
How were you positive he had KK? had you been playing with him for a while or something? seeing his pattern?
When I'm in the zone its almost like I can see their cards. Its hard to explain so many things that go into it. Betting pattern, how long he takes, table texture. Its a really hard thing to teach. You just have to learn how to "feel" it on your own.
ok its just you didnt state anything in the HH post so i wanted to make sure this wasnt just some random player who just sat down and you put him on KK with some ungodly read of who knows what
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Theeggman
Old 05-04-2005, 06:57 PM #7 (permalink)  
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So you were positive he had KK and you pushed him off of them w/22? That's sick. The money means absolutely nothing to you by now huh?
I'll be a rootin' tootin' shootin' damn fool, protectin' my chips.
 
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ilikeaces86
Old 05-04-2005, 07:07 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theeggman
So you were positive he had KK and you pushed him off of them w/22? That's sick. The money means absolutely nothing to you by now huh?
The money means everything thats why I pushed. To take his money.
 
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Theeggman
Old 05-04-2005, 07:10 PM #9 (permalink)  
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LOL
I'll be a rootin' tootin' shootin' damn fool, protectin' my chips.
 
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jmontis
Old 05-05-2005, 08:03 AM #10 (permalink)  
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the cards are almost meaningless, not the money.... at this level anyways.
take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
 
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drmcboy
Old 05-05-2005, 02:14 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 vnh
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ender555
Old 05-05-2005, 03:08 PM #12 (permalink)  
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this kind of play makes me scared of high stakes.
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michael1123
Old 05-06-2005, 09:07 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theeggman
So you were positive he had KK and you pushed him off of them w/22? That's sick. The money means absolutely nothing to you by now huh?
Yeah ... that's a regular concept in all high stakes games, tournaments included. You make moves based on your read of what they have, not based on your cards.

If you think they'll fold, what you have is completely meaningless. That only matters when you're called.

The KK's rereraise on the flop in that hand is very strange though. I'd have expected a call or fold if he had KK.
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ensign_lee
Old 05-07-2005, 04:09 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael1123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theeggman
So you were positive he had KK and you pushed him off of them w/22? That's sick. The money means absolutely nothing to you by now huh?
Yeah ... that's a regular concept in all high stakes games, tournaments included. You make moves based on your read of what they have, not based on your cards.

If you think they'll fold, what you have is completely meaningless. That only matters when you're called.

The KK's rereraise on the flop in that hand is very strange though. I'd have expected a call or fold if he had KK.
What? Why in blazes would he CALL with KK? This is a clear raise or fold situation. He chose the former, and then got given (false) evidence that he was beat.

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michael1123
Old 05-07-2005, 10:11 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ensign_lee
What? Why in blazes would he CALL with KK? This is a clear raise or fold situation. He chose the former, and then got given (false) evidence that he was beat.
Because its such a small raise and he's unsure of whether he's beat or not, and may get a better read on the turn (opponent may slow down if on a bluff or semi-bluff). Do you think his goofy little minimum reraise helped him out? All he accomplished by reraising instead of calling was throwing away another $52 ($52 more than it cost to call on the flop, $104 more than it cost to fold) without seeing the turn. Horrid play.

Raising more if he thought he was ahead would've been fine. Minreraising back, after you've just been minraised, is silly.
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allLiving
Old 05-08-2005, 10:10 PM #16 (permalink)  
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My thinking is the opponent would supposedly had KK thought, "Hmm, a mini-raise might mean he has a pair of jacks and is testing me to see if I have an ace or not. " He mini-raises back saying "I can beat your Jacks!" Ilikeaces raises back to him saying "I want you to think I can beat jacks and kings, I have an ACE!" Henceforth making KK fold his hand with only having 22 in hand. Playing the player. Nh

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michael1123
Old 05-09-2005, 02:40 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Right, but my style of play is calling the flop raise with the KK and reading him on the turn, since obviously he didn't really test the waters here.

You give yourself the same chance to read how he reacts (just at the turn instead of the river), put less money into the pot, and get to see the turn which could possibly help you out (an A makes it less likely they have an A, a K lets you know you have the hand, a Q or J gives you a straight draw, a heart gives you the nut flush draw if you have the K of hearts, etc.).

If I thought he had something like JJ, I'd raise the flop harder. But I really just prefer calling or folding in this spot typically.

When playing straight forward poker, you raise when you think you have the best hand, you fold when you think you have the worst hand, and you call (if the bet / raise is small enough to give you pot odds) when you aren't sure.
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Trebor
Old 05-11-2005, 07:14 AM #18 (permalink)  

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Trebor
my problem with the call, and the raise unless u have a SOLID read, is this ... u only have 2 outs if the other guy has Aces so you have no real chance to improve on the turn, 4% or so(you dont have pot odds even with the backdoor draws). Anyone who bluffs worth a damn is going to continue on the turn and then what do you do ... u fold. If someone thinks ur on KK and reps the aces, calling just reinforces that. It says I have KK but I dont want to fold. Maby u would play trip Aces like this, but will calling really represent that? I think this is a fold situation. U dont have top pair and u have no way to improve, if someone is bluffing all the more power to them for making u fold the best hand. I dont mind folding the best hand once in a while, the bluffer is going to misread you someday so if I cant call a raise I dont.

Incredible read, my question is this ... how did u get to Ks, I would think AA would be played in a similer way preflop(is he stronger with KK than AA, but weaker with KK than with AK JJ TT ect?), maby the reraise gave it away on the flop that he didnt have the set and it wasnt strong enough for AK, but the min reraise looks alot like AK with alot of ppl I play against? Maby u just got a lucky guess and called it a read? How did u know he wouldnt read u for a bluff(what was ur tbl image)? Because thats what it looked like to me, he put u on a bluff but just couldnt bring himself to call that big a bet with second pair. If he had reraised much stronger, at what size reraise would u have folded instead of going all in?

ppl always say they get into a groove and have a feel for things, but there must be some objective explanation. I mean help us out here, we are all trying to learn how to play like u. What were the observations about this player that came into this read? betting speed, bet size, typing or being silent, his position, all of the above? what other information from past hands might have applied, is he easy to move off of hands? What kind of patterns do you look for?
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michael1123
Old 05-11-2005, 09:41 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Of course you don't have pot odds if you put your opponent on the ace. This guy obviously didn't immediately, hence the reraise. What I was saying was if you think you may have the best hand here, its better to call than to make the silly little minreraise back, for the above reasons.
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Trebor
Old 05-11-2005, 01:43 PM #20 (permalink)  

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I agree, sort of ... but I think if your read is good enough to call than it should be good enough to raise here. Otherwise you should just get out of the hand. But what do I know ...
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michael1123
Old 05-12-2005, 02:14 AM #21 (permalink)  
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If you think there's a 40% chance that you're ahead on the flop here, why would you raise (unless you're attempting a bluff)? Calling makes more sense if you're reading that there's that good of a chance that you're ahead (but less than 50%), because of pot odds (nothing to do with your number of outs really).

Raising would still be a losing play, if you're accurate in your read of being behind 60% of the time against this player in this position, and ahead 40% of the time. Calling can make sense, as long as you're good at reading your opponent and can likely get a better read on the turn.
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Trebor
Old 05-12-2005, 11:05 PM #22 (permalink)  

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Ok Ill buy it ... But how do you read ur opponent on the turn? what is he going to do to let u know he doesnt have the ace? The only thing I can think of would be for him to check it to you and give up. I mean how big a bet are u willing to call on the turn with a 40% read from the flop?
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michael1123
Old 05-13-2005, 05:19 AM #23 (permalink)  
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Its reading, I can't begin to really explain how to read people in this game, it just comes from experience. You read whether he wants a call on the turn (which means he has you beat) or you read that he's begging for you to fold (he's bluffing), and then there's a level beyond this where you put them on hands that make the most sense (Could wanting you to fold be a weak ace? Would they play a weak ace the same way they'd play a complete bluff? etc.). All your experience adds up, and how you come to a read often happens on a subconscious level, where you're not really sure how you know what they have, but all your experience playing with players that play like him can narrow down the possible holdings that he has.

Sometimes your reads are wrong, and lead you to make decisions that look silly to other people, but if you're good at reading, you're correct more often than you're incorrect. I'm willing to call on the flop because I have faith that there's a good chance that I'll be able to pick up something on the turn (which easily may be that you're beat and have to fold, but it could be the other way as well). If you don't, then I agree you should probably just fold on the flop.

Personally, my best reads usually come after the flop (turn or river). Reading the flop is usually pretty hard for me, as flop play is often very standard with most people, where they'll bet out about the same amount whether they hit or not. The turn is where the key decisions happen, in my opinion.

Ok, that's about all I have to say on this thread.
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Trebor
Old 05-16-2005, 01:08 PM #24 (permalink)  

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Trebor
U sort of made my point for me here, just about any play the other guy makes on the turn could be read as 'he has the ace'. So if we arnt Gods like you, and can't mind-meld with our opponents, we should fold. Of course If I were you, I would definately call, knowing everything must be nice.
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michael1123
Old 05-17-2005, 12:46 AM #25 (permalink)  
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Um ... ok ...
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Trebor
Old 05-17-2005, 11:52 AM #26 (permalink)  

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ok
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Greedo017
Old 05-18-2005, 08:24 AM #27 (permalink)  
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 i don't really get how that was so hard to understand... michael was saying he feels like he can read people better on the turn than on the flop, michael may be able to mind-meld, but he's probably right that generally the turn is more of a make or break point. more money is at stake, people will reveal more about their hand by how much they bet. its easy to pot the flop, its a much bigger move to then pot the turn.

353545040

sorry, that's a hand number i'm writing down so i don't forget it.
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Bmxicle
Old 06-09-2005, 01:40 AM #28 (permalink)  
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villain was pretty loose pre-flop but slowed down post-flop. I was pretty confident that he was on a missed flush draw, or atleast a queen with a weak kicker, neither of which he could call with. My image is fairly tight. Was this too risky even though i was confident in my read?

POKERSTARS GAME #1860524149: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($2/$4) - 2005/06/08 - 21:23:20 (ET)
Table 'Irmintraud' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: raisinu ($313.35 in chips)
Seat 2: Bmxicle ($394 in chips)
Seat 3: JohnSmiley1 ($1566.75 in chips)
Seat 4: detshifty ($134.65 in chips)
Seat 5: r3vbr ($880.20 in chips)
Seat 6: Slah ($482.05 in chips)
Slah: posts small blind $2
raisinu: posts big blind $4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Bmxicle [Kd Jd]
Bmxicle: raises $10 to $14
JohnSmiley1: folds
detshifty: folds
r3vbr: folds
Slah: calls $12
raisinu: calls $10
*** FLOP *** [6h 3c Qc]
Slah: checks
raisinu: checks
Bmxicle: bets $36
Slah: calls $36
raisinu: folds
*** TURN *** [6h 3c Qc] [Ts]
Slah said, "come get it while it's hot folkes"
Slah: checks
Bmxicle: checks
*** RIVER *** [6h 3c Qc Ts] [5d]
Slah: bets $104
Bmxicle: raises $240 to $344 and is all-in
Slah: folds
Slah said, "there you go!"
Bmxicle collected $319 from pot
Bmxicle: shows [Kd Jd] (high card King)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $322 | Rake $3
Board [6h 3c Qc Ts 5d]
Seat 1: raisinu (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: Bmxicle collected ($319)
Seat 3: JohnSmiley1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: detshifty folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: r3vbr (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Slah (small blind) folded on the River
 
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ender555
Old 06-21-2005, 07:05 PM #29 (permalink)  
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Nice move...

Him saying "come get it while it's hot" that was a show of confidence which according to caro means he's weak. Very sweet bluff.... How many time's have you missed doing this? One miss mean's you need to win this 3-4 times for each miss.
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Bmxicle
Old 06-22-2005, 02:18 AM #30 (permalink)  
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I haven't really "missed" doing this, because i really don't do it very often, i need a very strong read to do so.

One time this guy was drawing to a flush, so i pushed over the top of him w/ AK unimproved so he would fold. Instead he called with one card to come and i won it haha.
 
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