Originally Posted by ender555

no reason to raise the turn..... possibly only live outs are strait flush ones. calling is the only option on the turn, and pushing or calling if you hit strait or flush on river.

Originally Posted by alias2211

well, the more i think about this, the more i think he was actually _looking_ for a check raise opportunity against me, and here he got it: he knows that i play pretty aggressively in general, especially against him that day, so he would probably wait for a good check raise spot like this because he knows he can use it to his advantage. i mean what should i expect from a smooth call OOP and then a check raise on turn? damn, i'm almost pissed that i didn't have the clarity in the moment to look at that proposition more objectively. certainly, if he leads out on the turn i don't go into push over top mode, i most likely call turn and then fold river to another bet if i miss. so this was really his spot in the progression of the hand to take my stack. not too many other opportunities for that the way this all played out.

gabe: yeah i like the check behind against this type of player in this spot. it's good to be aware of keeping that option open. i gave him room to make a play on me, and he took it and played it well. normally i do a decent job on pot control considerations, but this situation got the best of me. i just thought maybe i'd broken his spirit for the day and it was really more of a play on position than actual holdings. that was not the case, though, so my line cost me a buyin. next time i have more variables to consider, so thanks to everyone for their help.

i like ender's suggestion about looking for the check/call to checkdown player. that is an important consideration. in retrospect, i don't think this player tends to do that, occasionally maybe, but not as a rule. so here it would have been prudent to simply check behind, keep the pot small until the river and reevaluate there. if i hit a huge hand like a SF or 88877 then i can think about doing some 3 betting if allowed. but until that happens, there is really no reason to get involved in a huge scrap.