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Difficult post flop decisions

  
 
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pocketfours
Old 05-09-2007, 10:29 AM     Post subject: Difficult post flop decisions #1 (permalink)  
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 Villain is 25/16, tough regular. Does not like to give away pots. Seen him raise light from UTG countless times. I had AJs, which is garbage here, but decided to mix it up and isolate (usually I would of course fold). My image is TAG.

(Ongame) Texas Hold'em $10-$10 NL (real money)

Seat 1: SB ($2,526 in chips)
Seat 2: BB ($985 in chips)
Seat 3: UTG ($1345 in chips)
Seat 4: Hero ($1120 in chips)
Seat 5: EP3 ($765 in chips)
Seat 6: MP1 ($935 in chips)
Seat 7: MP2 ($660 in chips)
Seat 8: MP3 ($1490 in chips)
Seat 9: CO ($1167 in chips)
Seat 10: button ($2088 in chips)

Dealt to Hero: AdJd

ANTES/BLINDS
SB posts blind ($5), BB posts blind ($10).

PRE-FLOP
UTG bets $30, Hero raises to $85, EP3 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

FLOP [board cards 2h,Th,Js ]
UTG checks, Hero bets $155, UTG calls.

TURN [board cards 2h,Th,Js,3c ]
UTG checks, Hero checks.

RIVER [board cards 2h,Th,Js,3c,7h ]
UTG bets 350, Hero...

Should I let him have it? For most this probably looks like instafold, but anyone think I should call (845 in the pot, 350 to call)?

What about the turn, should I have fired a second barrel (bluff to get QQ/KK to fold and also to prevent draws)? What do you put villain on here?
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 05-09-2007, 04:31 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 I fold but there's no doubt i fire another barrel on turn.
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gabe
Old 05-09-2007, 05:31 PM #3 (permalink)  
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dont like preflop at all, it just ends up getting you into these spots postflop
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Renton
Old 05-09-2007, 05:48 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 You have tptk in a 3bet pot vs an aggressive player when the turn went check check, and your getting ok pot odds.

I don't think you can put him on having a flush, because most of the suited cards he's calling a reraise with preflop are check/shoving this flop. I suppose he could be making a legitimate value bet with QQ or KK.

I'd call.
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pocketfours
Old 05-10-2007, 07:59 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
dont like preflop at all, it just ends up getting you into these spots postflop
Absolutely true of course. Here I was just mixing it up so that I would get action with my legitimate hands. I reraise EP with any two suited cards every so often (knowingly unprofitably). Usually I'm hoping to flop a draw and move in, but with this flop a shove was pretty much out of the question with only 2-5 outs against his calling range. Suited connectors are of course better for this purpose...
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pocketfours
Old 05-10-2007, 08:12 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
I don't think you can put him on having a flush, because most of the suited cards he's calling a reraise with preflop are check/shoving this flop. I suppose he could be making a legitimate value bet with QQ or KK.
Indeed, it was hard to put him on a flush, and I don't think he would have played KK like a scared mouse... Very often I'm checking AA on the turn in position to induce a bluff on the river, so value betting QQ with 3/4 pot is pretty marginal also.
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sauce123
Old 05-13-2007, 10:42 PM #7 (permalink)  
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i dont see why you wouldnt bet the turn when there are so many draws in his range and you gave him such good odds to call preflop and hes loose preflop
I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
 
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pocketfours
Old 05-14-2007, 07:58 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
i dont see why you wouldnt bet the turn when there are so many draws in his range and you gave him such good odds to call preflop and hes loose preflop
For pot control mostly. I didn't put him on a draw and I really felt like I was behind after he called the flop bet.

I think giving a freecard on the turn with position is often a decent play, especially if I cant be certain that I have the best hand. It very often induces a bluff, which I can then call with the same price (or sometimes less) that the turn bet would have cost me.
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pocketfours
Old 05-14-2007, 08:13 AM #9 (permalink)  
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 Thanks for all the comments, I realize from sauce's post that I should have given worse odds preflop. Post flop I had many marginal decisions, so it was nice to hear your thoughts.

Conclusion:
I called the river and he showed down 8s9s for the rivered straight.
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sauce123
Old 05-14-2007, 03:19 PM #10 (permalink)  
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pocket fours- for future reference i think the only part of his PF raising range he folds to such a small raise is the KQ, AQ, KJ, KT type of hands because of reverse implied, but u r getting called by any pair or any suited connector which is y i recommend denying him odds on the turn.
I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
 
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pocketfours
Old 05-14-2007, 07:19 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
pocket fours- for future reference i think the only part of his PF raising range he folds to such a small raise is the KQ, AQ, KJ, KT type of hands because of reverse implied, but u r getting called by any pair or any suited connector which is y i recommend denying him odds on the turn.
Who raises KQ, KJ, KT utg anyway?

I'm not sure I would call this reraise preflop with suited connector oop. I like playing my connectors in position only. Is that a big mistake? Should I always call reraises with connectors oop, or just occasionally?

I'm around 18/9 ten handed so my ep raises are usually reraised by AK or JJ+ only, so I should have really good IO at least...
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sauce123
Old 05-14-2007, 11:09 PM #12 (permalink)  
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pocket fours- Im not saying that calling a small raise oop with connectors is +ev, there are a ton of factors which amount to "sometimes it is, sometimes it isnt" depending on opponent, stack sizes, metagame etc. What im saying is that if we put ourselves in the mindset of a:

"Villain is 25/16, tough regular. Does not like to give away pots. Seen him raise light from UTG countless times. I had AJs, which is garbage here, but decided to mix it up and isolate (usually I would of course fold). My image is TAG."

hes probably thinking a few things about you
1) ur raising with AK, AQs, JJ+.
2) u guys r slightly over 100 BB deep
3) he thinks he can outplay u postflop most likely
4) because of 1,2,3 he thinks his implied odds r most likely stacks

Therefore hes not gonna lay down any hand with str8/flush/set value to you when you lay him this price which is why you have to make a big bet on the turn as you are crushing his range here and you may even get some value off of KJ QJs if he decides to play them (which he wont if hes good, but whatever).
I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
 
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pocketfours
Old 05-15-2007, 08:22 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
pocket fours- Im not saying that calling a small raise oop with connectors is +ev, there are a ton of factors which amount to "sometimes it is, sometimes it isnt" depending on opponent, stack sizes, metagame etc. What im saying is that if we put ourselves in the mindset of a:

"Villain is 25/16, tough regular. Does not like to give away pots. Seen him raise light from UTG countless times. I had AJs, which is garbage here, but decided to mix it up and isolate (usually I would of course fold). My image is TAG."

hes probably thinking a few things about you
1) ur raising with AK, AQs, JJ+.
2) u guys r slightly over 100 BB deep
3) he thinks he can outplay u postflop most likely
4) because of 1,2,3 he thinks his implied odds r most likely stacks

Therefore hes not gonna lay down any hand with str8/flush/set value to you when you lay him this price which is why you have to make a big bet on the turn as you are crushing his range here and you may even get some value off of KJ QJs if he decides to play them (which he wont if hes good, but whatever).
I clearly didn't think that I'm far ahead of his range, which in hindsight seems quite obvious... Thanks for your help sauce
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XTR1000
Old 05-30-2007, 05:32 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
Therefore hes not gonna lay down any hand with str8/flush/set value to you when you lay him this price
what would be the wrong price for sc´s under these circumstances?
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wufwugy
Old 07-04-2007, 03:27 AM #15 (permalink)  
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 PF - Raise more, dlo. Shouldn't be standard, but can see occasionally 3betting AJs here.

Turn - At much lower stakes, mind you, I've seen many river bluffs induced by checking IP in similar situations. Checking also keeps us from getting bluffed out, which I have also surprisingly witnessed a few times.

IMO, pot control is underrated at FR. I could be quite wrong about that, though, as I'm not that good.
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