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A couple "thinking outside of the box" plays

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michael1123

12-27-2005, 04:12 AM Post subject: A couple "thinking outside of the box" plays

#1 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Rochester Hills, MI

Posts: 1,720

NL Texas Hold'em $1000 Buy-in + $65 Entry Fee
Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Monday, December 26, 21:17:16 EDT

Hero (t955)
MP3 (t990)
CO (t935)
Button (t1110)
SB (t985)
BB (t1000)
UTG (t1295)
UTG+1 (t1000)
UTG+2 (t1000)
MP1 (t730)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K

, K

.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t15, UTG+2 calls t15, 1 fold, Hero raises to t60, 5 folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls t45.

- He limps in at UTG+2 after UTG+1 had limped in, and then he calls a raise. At this point its pretty likely that he has a small pocket pair and is calling based on implied odds.

Flop: (t160) 7

, 8

, 3

(2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets t100, UTG+2 calls t100.

Given my preflop read, this wasn't a good flop for me. However, he doesn't raise (which a set probably would since its likely at this point that I have a high pocket pair and he'd likely get paid off), so its still probable that he has a small / mid PP and is calling because he thinks he may have the best hand.

Turn: (t357.50) 2

(2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero checks.

Here is where my play goes outside of the box, and I'll explain why. First, I get a little more added information. He doesn't lead at the pot, and he even delays a few seconds before checking. This strengthens my read that he has a lower PP, and is hoping that I have overcards and will check down now that he called my flop bet.

Given that I believe he just has two outs, I'm not worrying about getting sucked out on, so I'm just trying to maximize my value here. It was likely that he called on the flop to see if his hand was good by how I acted on the turn, so if I bet the turn hard its very likely he'll correctly put me on a high PP and dump his hand. By checking behind him, I can use his attempt to read my hand against him, and he'll almost have to put me on two high cards.

River: (t357.50) 2

(2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets t300, UTG+2 calls t300.

The river check to me gives me the final piece of information I need. It makes it certain that he did not have a set, and therefore I certainly have the best hand. I already considered it highly unlikely, but now that's not even a possibility. More importantly, the river is a beautiful 2, that could not have made his hand, and even more importantly couldn't have helped my hand.

Now that he has to think that he has the best hand, I throw out a strong near pot sized bet that looks like a silly bluff, and he has no choice but to call.

Final Pot: t960

Results in white below:
UTG+2 has 5s 5h (two pair, fives and twos).
Hero has Kc Kh (two pair, kings and twos).
Outcome: Hero wins t957.50.

NL Texas Hold'em $1000 Buy-in + $65 Entry Fee
Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Monday, December 26, 21:17:16
UTG (t1000)
UTG+1 (t985)
UTG+2 (t974)
MP1 (t975)
MP2 (t1348)
MP3 (t764)
CO (t970)
Button (t1045)
Hero (t939)
BB (t1000)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J

, J

.
6 folds, CO raises to t45, 1 fold, Hero raises to t150, BB calls t135, CO folds.

Standard play preflop. BB instantly cold calls behind me, which is obviously worrysome.

Flop: (t342.50) A

, 5

, 4

(2 players)

Not a good flop for me, but not horrible. Given the BB's call, I'm putting him on AK, AQ, KK, QQ, or a lower PP than mine. Most of those hands have me beat, however most can't like the flop too much either. There's an A out there that'll scare any PP and AQ can be dominated by AK (very reasonable holding by me given my preflop play). AK likes the flop, but probably still leaves me with 11 outs, as its unlikely (1/4 chance) that he also has the K of hearts.

Given that ~1/6 of my stack was in preflop, and I probably have folding equity along with 11 outs if I'm beaten, I decide I'm willing to risk my stack on this hand if I need to. How I go about doing this, however, is definitely outside of the norm.

Hero checks, BB bets t175, Hero raises to t500, BB folds.
Hero wins t1020.

Instead of just shoving or betting at the flop hard, I decide to check. If the BB shoves, I'm done with the hand. If he checks behind me and the turn is not a heart, I probably take a stab at the turn, but if he raises me I'm also done with the hand. However, as I was hoping, the BB bets an amount that gives me folding equity.

I had 790 in my stack at the flop, so I could just go all in, making it 615 more to him. But instead I quickly raise him to about 3x his bet, clearly leaving me pot commited. This looks more like a big hand than just going all in, and combined with the fact that I check raised instead of lead, its very likely that I was trapping with AK here (possibly with the K of hearts as well).

I don't know what he folded here, but given the way I played the hand I could certainly see AQ (without the Q of hearts) folding here, and KK (no heart) and QQ basically have to fold. Playing the hand like this gave me much more folding equity than just leading into the pot, let alone winning a bigger pot because of the check raise.

I obviously don't play every hand in an outside the box type of way, but occasionally its necessary to do so to maximize your value on a hand, and also make yourself more unpredicatable and harder to read, even when you're playing a hand straight forwardly.

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Andy Holt

12-27-2005, 08:13 PM

#2 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2005

Location: They were suited!

Posts: 336

I've used these lines before but never thought about them with such complexity and depth. Excellent post Michael, it shows us how you're able to beat even the highest stakes games.

Please post more hands like this, I'm really interested in your thought processes in these outside-the-box situations. I see myself thinking about a lot of the same things.

Irisheyes

12-28-2005, 01:46 AM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: over there

Posts: 3,708

Ditto. Really good post, clearly explained.

Xianti

12-28-2005, 02:48 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Location: facebook.com/xianti

Posts: 5,289

Awesome. We want more!

Pingviini

12-28-2005, 10:54 AM

#5 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Bangkok

Posts: 1,090

This is something we should definitely have more here!

Awesome michael!

Can you explain what would be the "normal" plays for you here even though I can make good guesses..

"Poker is a simple math game" -Aba20

12-28-2005, 07:33 PM

#6 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 1,855

Excellent post, Michael, I enjoyed reading that.

michael1123

12-30-2005, 04:20 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Rochester Hills, MI

Posts: 1,720

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pingviini

Can you explain what would be the "normal" plays for you here even though I can make good guesses..

Well, if you put me in these EXACT situations again, I probably would make the same plays given that I'd have the same reads, etc. But ok, standard KK play would probably be betting a bit more on the flop and betting the turn rather hard. Standard with JJ would be leading and folding to a reraise or check folding since I'm probably beat.

MAX

12-31-2005, 06:19 PM

#8 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Oct 2005

Location: Atlanta

Posts: 356

Micahel, and anyone else, would you mind checking this thread out and giving me your thoughts. I am not a high stakes player (I play the $22 SNGs), but do well where I'm at and for me this was completely "out of the box." I can't decide if realizing this play was a minor epiphany for me, or something that was just unadvisable. I do great playing a strat very similar to DavSimon's SnG guide, but am always looking to improve my game.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=26189

Thanks, Max

nutsinho

01-06-2006, 08:33 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt

Posts: 3,280

1st hand...*yawn*...

2nd hand....truly impressive michael

My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.

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A couple "thinking outside of the box" plays

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