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PO$$E$$ED
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02-08-2006, 09:01 PM
Post subject: Big draw against a weak/passive player
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: SITTING ON 'RILLA'S FINGER
Posts: 263
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3-handed 5/10. You get dealt A9 spades in SB. Button raises to $20. Now this guy plays a very weak/passive brand of poker. He never raises to more than $35 preflop and makes frequent min-bets/probe bets on the flop. He slowplays his good hands, frequently underbets his hand, and rarely makes big plays. He doesn't play tight, but he's not loose either. You decide to just call his raise. BB (shortstacked calling station) calls as well.
Flop comes 6s-7d-10s. You've flopped the nut flush draw, along with a gutshot and an overcard. You check, BB checks, button bets $10. You check-raise to $90. BB folds, button min-raises to $170. What's your move?
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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Well, you're not folding.
How much behind? If he's a frequent slow player - probably he has AT or over pair. I would assume I'm behind.
If he's not so weak as to fold AT or JJ/QQ here... then I guess you should just call. Aces are probably not outs for you. If you think he will fold a mere pair (even AA!) here then you can raise all in (or whatever the scariest amount to re-raise is)
You have 13 sure outs twice, although if he has a set then 7s might not be an out, and there might be redraws on the river to a boat.
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twosevoff
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Flush
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 526
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How deep are stacks?
If you both have around the buy-in I push here (or raise to whatever amt you think will look least like a bluff and commit both of you to the pot). You have significant folding equity if he has an overpair or AT here plus the chance of your big draw with as many as 15 outs connecting by the river.
If both your stacks are deeper I lean towards just calling because you don't want to put a lot more money in the pot here in case you're up against a set (which is likely the only hand that would call you), and raising again without committing yourself puts you to a very tough decision if he reraises you back or your draw misses on the turn.
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PO$$E$$ED
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: SITTING ON 'RILLA'S FINGER
Posts: 263
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Button has you covered, you have around $900 at the start of the hand.
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Pingviini
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 1,090
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call. You are most likely getting implied odds and its hard to know if he would fold an OP there. Next problem is what to do if you a) hit your draw b) dont hit. CR'ing might be too strong, and c/c might not get enough (if any) money in the pot, IMO you have to value bet these guys to death. One problem is that they might be too weak to call PSB's so 3/4 should work the best?
I would like to get more discussion about how to play against those kinds of players.. I play a lot against that breed, I am a bit puzzled and could surely use some fresh thoughts.
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"Poker is a simple math game" -Aba20
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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if they are passive, just get cheap cards from them instead of semibluffing
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Pingviini
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 1,090
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there are different types of passives, those who call too much and those who fold too much. In fact, IMO them being passive makes it more profitable to semi-bluff/raise/make thin value bets, because they do not play you back.
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"Poker is a simple math game" -Aba20
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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yea some passives are weak and some are calling stations, but all of them don't bet enough. i think the initial checkraise is good because it can win him the pot enough (he said he was a weak player), but i don't really think a push is necessary because of the great odds being offered.
why try getting it allin as a slight favorite (or maybe an under dog) when you can just call and get it in when you are a lock? if hes one of those guys that always slowplays his big hands (as indicated), hes not going to get away from it here.
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PO$$E$$ED
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: SITTING ON 'RILLA'S FINGER
Posts: 263
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villain's range- KT, AT, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, 77, 66
Against KT/KK/QQ/JJ, you are a small favorite. Against AA/AT, you are a small dog. (Interestingly enough, AT holds up better than AA in this situation. Odds of winning the hand are 53.43% and 53.33% respectively.)
Against TT/77/66, you are a 2-1 underdog.
Just wanted to throw this out there to generate more discussion.
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PO$$E$$ED
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: SITTING ON 'RILLA'S FINGER
Posts: 263
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I went AI after villain min-raised me. Unfortunately for me he called with a set of tens, and I didn't fill up. Against this kind of player, drawing for cheap would probably have been the better move, instead of coming over the top to a suspiciously weak min-raise.
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Bmxicle
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 947
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yeah sometimes you just know the minraise is a hand they wont fold, and its best just to try to suckout rather than get them to fold.
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