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5kNL and DEEP vs Dutch_maniak

  
 
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ESS123
Old 03-19-2010, 12:12 AM     Post subject: 5kNL and DEEP vs Dutch_maniak #1 (permalink)  
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Full Tilt Poker $25/$50 No Limit Hold'em - 3 players - View hand 597907
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

BTN: $5100.00
Hero (SB): $18112.00
BB: $12876.00

Pre Flop: ($75.00) Hero is SB with A K
BTN raises to $150, Hero raises to $550, BB raises to $1350, 1 fold, Hero calls $800

Flop: ($2850.00) 5 K 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $1450, Hero calls $1450

Turn: ($5750.00) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $3250, Hero requests TIME, Hero ???

Advice on pre is appreciated too. fwiw btn is staalmusa, opening a ton and 3betting 25% 3 handed.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 03-19-2010, 02:06 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 His range pre could easily be wide, and with his air he could be trying to bet you off pps less than KK or whatever hand you may have. I'd certainly call the turn and id probably fold river to a shove but idk if dutch_maniak is ballsy enough to shove it in here with a bluff. Never have played with him.
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sauce123
Old 03-19-2010, 03:56 AM #3 (permalink)  
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lol at folding ever when u take this line.

id 5bet pre usually

as played id call down or c/r flop, but i think calldown is almost certainly better, no idea if he like 4bets KQo here cause of blockers or like K7s, and if he 4bets K7s is he pot controlling a street or bet/bet/check or 3bombs etc etc
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 03-19-2010, 04:11 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 def call, im wondering you're asking call or shove here or you're actually thinking fold?
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ESS123
Old 03-19-2010, 06:13 AM #5 (permalink)  
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I'm either going to fold turn, call turn fold river, call turn call river. Def not shoving here, it makes no sense...

Obviously he can very very easily have AA here. AK/KK possible as well. For all of you not advocating folding, what hands specifically might cold 4bet and then 2barrel here? Also Sauce- Are you 5bet/7betting here for 260bb w AKo?
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pocketfours
Old 03-19-2010, 11:50 AM #6 (permalink)  
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 This play makes no sense. Why do you call pre if you want to fold now? Are you hoping that you hit AND he gives up? Seems incredibly optimistic to me.

I would 5bet and get it in pre without much thought. You can of course just fold pre if you want to wait for aces.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 03-19-2010, 01:47 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours View Post
This play makes no sense. Why do you call pre if you want to fold now? Are you hoping that you hit AND he gives up? Seems incredibly optimistic to me.

I would 5bet and get it in pre without much thought. You can of course just fold pre if you want to wait for aces.

First, 5betting pre may be marginally +EV but its laughable to think that he's going to spew off something worse than were flipping with here. Unless the guy is truly a dutch MANIAC!! I don't see anything wrong with calling in this situation. It's not like we know for absolute fact he is going to 3 barrel everytime. If that was the case 5betting AA/KK would be laughable.
On the same note, can't someone be 4betting light here pre and NOT be a total aggro spewtard postflop who is capable of 3 barrel bluffing here? To call down simply because its not exploitable is fine I suppose since no reads are given but at the same time I never really expect my opponents to exploit me by bluffing a wide enough range in this spot. MAYBE I'm not used to the crazy world of 25/50 3 max games?
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pocketfours
Old 03-19-2010, 02:53 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan View Post
First, 5betting pre may be marginally +EV but its laughable to think that he's going to spew off something worse than were flipping with here.
I think 6bet bluffing deep is a pretty cool play when you have blockers and pick good spots for it. Obviously backfires every now and then.

Hero (Button) ($917.80)
SB ($910.40)
BB ($481.10)
UTG ($612.30)
MP ($400)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8, A
2 folds, Hero bets $8, SB raises to $30, 1 fold, Hero raises to $84, SB raises to $228, Hero raises to $917.80 (All-In), SB calls $682.40 (All-In)

Flop: ($1824.80) 2, 9, 7 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($1824.80) Q (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($1824.80) K (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $1824.80 | Rake: $3
Results:
Hero had 8, A (high card, Ace).
SB had A, A (one pair, Aces).
Outcome: SB won $1821.80
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 03-19-2010, 03:48 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 Ofc its good against a light 5 bettor deep but this is all absurdity against someone we are clueless about besides hunches. Vs a player I have not seen been incredibly spewy aggro, or have not seen 6 bet bluff before, I would assume he doesn't have the 6bet bluff in his arsenal.

Idk about all you guys but im dying laughing at all this discussion about 5betting and 6betting. Something about how the words roll off the tongue.
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pocketfours
Old 03-19-2010, 04:31 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 Yeah it's preflop

Even then I think a 5bet/fold is going to be better than calling but I prefer to go with the hand.
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Alexos
Old 03-19-2010, 05:55 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 folding seems beyond insane, don't you think dutch maniacs have a wider range here than AA, 46s, 57s?

id call and call
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ESS123
Old 03-19-2010, 06:12 PM #12 (permalink)  
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why would I 5bet/fold AK lol?

Also Alexos, what hands are we beating? Due to the texture of the board, we only beat hands he is spazzing with. It's not like he's 3barreling w QQ here
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pocketfours
Old 03-19-2010, 08:04 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ESS123 View Post
why would I 5bet/fold AK lol?
For no reason. I just said I think it's better than calling if we are going to play it like this postflop.
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Alexos
Old 03-19-2010, 08:04 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 Agree that he's never rly vbetting worse, but you beat 89, 68, diamonds, A2, A4, randoms. He could even 4bet KQ pre idk.

This is the top of your range, your hand is underepped... etc.
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 03-19-2010, 08:14 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ESS123 View Post
why would I 5bet/fold AK lol?
Well if you 5bet his calling range is gonna be like JJ+ (maybe he flats JJ), AK, floats. His 6betting (lol saying 6betting is making me laugh) range is AA, KK and air. I don't see why you can't 5-bet fold necessarily, when there's so much money in the pot there's a lot of added value of taking down the pot right there even if it's exploitable (he's not exploiting it i promise you that).
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 03-19-2010, 08:16 PM #16 (permalink)  
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 Also, you can call the turn here and re-eval the river. Like if he instashoves faster than flash gordon then i might fold or if a diamond comes or maybe some other cards. He also could check the river.
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ESS123
Old 03-19-2010, 08:46 PM #17 (permalink)  
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ugh calling turn folding river is getting so owned. I mean I think most players are capable of spaz 3barreling this deep thinking it's so tough for me to call down unless I'm slowplaying KK

I feel like it's between mucking turn and call/call given that I think his 2barreling range is not very different than his 3barreling range in this certain situation (preflop being a pretty rare/weird scenario) and with this stack depth. I only have one hand in my range (which is discounted) that can fistpump get it in here (KK). This kinda goes to show why being OOP sucks balls
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gabe
Old 03-19-2010, 10:34 PM #18 (permalink)  
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i like your line. c/r flop can be better with some specific dynamics i think
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:40 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ESS123 View Post
ugh calling turn folding river is getting so owned. I mean I think most players are capable of spaz 3barreling this deep thinking it's so tough for me to call down unless I'm slowplaying KK

I feel like it's between mucking turn and call/call given that I think his 2barreling range is not very different than his 3barreling range in this certain situation (preflop being a pretty rare/weird scenario) and with this stack depth. I only have one hand in my range (which is discounted) that can fistpump get it in here (KK). This kinda goes to show why being OOP sucks balls
Its clearly an incredibly shitty spot but I really dont think its between muck turn and call down. I think either I am vastly over estimating how little balls people have or you are being too paranoid. I just hate giving people credit for doing this insane of a bluff enough to call.
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Old 03-20-2010, 03:47 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ESS123 View Post
I think his 2barreling range is not very different than his 3barreling range in this certain situation
I think this depends a lot on how he feels you'll play TT-QQ here. Does he expect you to call once and fold turn, or call twice and try to get to showdown? If he's expecting you to call twice with these hands, its conceivable he tries tripling on this dry of a board where your hand is under-repped and seems like TT-QQ to him.
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sauce123
Old 03-23-2010, 06:19 AM #21 (permalink)  
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i think 5bet/folding is fine btw with these stacks, make it like 2995
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tstrout
Old 03-24-2010, 04:29 PM #22 (permalink)  
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I'd imagine that your hand is very transparent to your opponent in this situation considering how you played pre-flop and then calling the flop bet OOP. AK is your most likely candidate in his eyes. That being said, he either thinks he can muscle you off TPTK, or he has TPTK beat. Should he have a reason based on your play to think he can push you off TPTK? If not, he can probably beat TPTK or has the same hand as you and is testing your guts. For an AKo hand, you got a dream flop. If you fold it now, how can you ever play it in the future? The entire value of AKo is TPTK on the flop. There are only 3 ways he can have aces and 1 way he can have kings, so only 4 starting hands have you beat unless you think he hood winked you preflop 4-betting a funky hand. His 4-bet bought position for him by folding the original raiser, so it is possible that he was isolating you figuring he knew your probable holdings. All this being said AKo plays horribly OOP, so those advocating 5-betting preflop, I'm with you guys.
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ESS123
Old 04-05-2010, 06:40 PM #23 (permalink)  
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fwiw I think 5betting looks so strong here that I think it is a reasonable option w AK

and for this reason I can have AA/KK here, since I wouldn't want to push him out (though I'd prob c/r AA on the flop some nonzero%, obv would just flat flop w KK). So I def don't have the top of my range here...

results: I folded turn
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Ravageur
Old 04-13-2010, 06:08 AM #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tstrout View Post
For an AKo hand, you got a dream flop. If you fold it now, how can you ever play it in the future? The entire value of AKo is TPTK on the flop.
+1

When you have the top top, you gotta go with it.
Seriously though I think i'd fold the turn....just don't let anyone know what you folded. This deep it seems like we can add 77/55 to his range that tried to pick up dead money.
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sauce123
Old 04-15-2010, 06:51 AM #25 (permalink)  
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folding is lighting money on fire yo
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Old 05-02-2010, 03:04 PM #26 (permalink)  
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 I like more a 5bet preflop. This deep villain can bluff 6bet with some really weaker/dominated hands, too.

As played I call turn.
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