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pocketfours
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12-16-2007, 11:36 AM
Post subject: 5/10: TPTK, what is our plan?
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Fairly common difficult spot. Assume that villains are solid TAGs, and let's also assume that AA/KK are very unlikely. My standard preflop play with AQs is to call UTG raise OTB, but let's think about postflop here.
If we cbet 3/4 pot ($300) and are called by one player, then pot size is $1010 and we have $565 behind.
We could c/f all streets, but that seems weak and we aren't protecting our hand.
Seat 3: UTG ($1025.40 in chips)
Seat 4: CUTOFF ($1,261.00 in chips)
Seat 8: HERO [ QD,AD ] ($1,000.00 in chips)
Seat 9: SB ($1,019.35 in chips)
Seat 10: BB ($600.30 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
SB posts blind ($5), BB posts blind ($10).
PRE-FLOP
UTG bets $35, CUTOFF folds, HERO bets $135, SB calls $130, BB folds, UTG calls $100.
FLOP [board cards 4C,QC,7D ] (pot $410)
SB checks, UTG checks, HERO...
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Can we assume if we check he wont bluff/protect later streets with AK/JJ? That seems like a pretty important piece of information here.
If he wont then it looks as though either c/f or betting to protect our hand makes sense.
If he will then check/calling could have alot of value.
Is AK in our range here?
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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I think your plan should be to bet because there's a lot of money in the pot and you have a hand that is likely best. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see what's difficult about this situation.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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i forgot to say my default play is to bet here
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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silu73
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,009
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HU I might check this flop. Multiway I will bet this a lot of times.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
i forgot to say my default play is to bet here
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B/f or b/c? I'm not sure if we can b/f here because of the flushdraw and because of pot odds if villain shoves.
I would say my range here is AJs/AQ/AK/all pairs/SCs/air, but a lot of those hands I will call instead of raise OTB a lot of the time.
We can't be sure how villain would play JJ/AK. But a lot of the time both villains are setmining here and do we want to pay off 44/77?
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
I think your plan should be to bet because there's a lot of money in the pot and you have a hand that is likely best. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see what's difficult about this situation.
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I would say we are very close to being committed if we bet here. I'm not that happy to stack off with TPTK, but that might still be correct in a three way reraised pot as long as the top pair is high enough.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
i forgot to say my default play is to bet here
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B/f or b/c? I'm not sure if we can b/f here because of the flushdraw and because of pot odds if villain shoves. |
I cant fold if he shoves but im not thrilled about calling. Im still a lowstakes player though so
a) Im not as good as you guys 
b) People probably stack off a little lighter with made hands and a little tighter with bluffs/semibluffs where I am.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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I'm a little worried about SB's cold call here.
I think I would bet $250ish on the flop and fold to an SB push but probably call a push from UTG. I think SB has a stronger range than UTG as played preflop. I'd imagine UTG would 4-bet most strong hands preflop, not wanting it to go multiway OOP.
My response right now is assuming that SB can have KK/AA and that it is pretty likely. If you're assuming AA/KK is unlikely (as you stated in your post) then I'd bet/call.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
I'm a little worried about SB's cold call here.
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Me too. I'm not as worried about 44 and 77 as I am KK+ from SB.
In any case, it's a tough decision. I guess I bet to protect my hand, but I don't think worse hands are calling or raising very often. I probably bet 1/2 pot and fold to a push from SB (b/c I think KK+ are in his range) and call a push from UTG (b/c AQo, AcKc, AcJc are in his range). I dunno, bet/fold might be better vs. both? Pot will be so big, you'll have backdoor flush vs. all made hands and 3 A's vs. KK... bleh, marginal spot imo.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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id check here almost always
if i bet i would bet 245 and call a shove- leaving myself a legitimate bet for the turn or river if called
imo ur hand is too strong to fold given you 3bet OTB and id assume have a moderately aggressive image as do the other villains in the hand, especially given potsize.
we will almost surely win more monies on average by checking this flop as the only possible player who may have a drawing hand is UTG- and there arent a huge number of UTG drawing combos on this board- two big club-club cards and potentially 56s- that's probably less than 5% of his combinations which call the 3bet- so protecting our hand is protecting against 2 outs in almost all possible scenarios and so therefore is an unimportant consideration.
i think ur best line here is to call any turn lead from either player and shove river when checked to or call a river shove yourself though its actually pretty close if SB goes bet/shove on turn/river- OR bet/call turn if checked to again.
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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god- i wish i could just get another player to fold for me, one player to bluff for me, and i could be in charge of getting value...
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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how about i fold for you and we split the profits?
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
id check here almost always
if i bet i would bet 245 and call a shove- leaving myself a legitimate bet for the turn or river if called
imo ur hand is too strong to fold given you 3bet OTB and id assume have a moderately aggressive image as do the other villains in the hand, especially given potsize.
we will almost surely win more monies on average by checking this flop as the only possible player who may have a drawing hand is UTG- and there arent a huge number of UTG drawing combos on this board- two big club-club cards and potentially 56s- that's probably less than 5% of his combinations which call the 3bet- so protecting our hand is protecting against 2 outs in almost all possible scenarios and so therefore is an unimportant consideration.
i think ur best line here is to call any turn lead from either player and shove river when checked to or call a river shove yourself though its actually pretty close if SB goes bet/shove on turn/river- OR bet/call turn if checked to again.
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This sounds reasonable. If I check flop and neither bets turn, then I can be pretty happy with bet/call. I'm still not happy to call a turn bet and a river shove.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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p4s- with my image/3bet range id expect either villain to go 2 streets/river shove with any queen or JJ and some bluffs/semibluffs- if this is very different for you then I would likely just call turn and fold river...
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
p4s- with my image/3bet range id expect either villain to go 2 streets/river shove with any queen or JJ and some bluffs/semibluffs- if this is very different for you then I would likely just call turn and fold river...
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My image is prob better, although I might bet JJ two streets myself. Would need to look at villain AF of course etc.
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