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5/10 - possibly overthinking things

  
 
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griffey24
Old 03-12-2008, 03:15 AM     Post subject: 5/10 - possibly overthinking things #1 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1
- villain is a TAGG reg who 3-bets reasonably often and always calls my 3-bets pre
-He has 3-bet me a few times this session and I've folded, so decided to finally call in position

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $2/$5 pounds
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $577.30
UTG+1: $493
CO: $450.15
Hero: $1241.16
SB: $816.45
BB: $524.90

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with
3 folds, Hero raises to $15, SB folds, BB raises to $55, Hero calls.

Flop: ($112, 2 players)
BB bets $75, Hero calls.
Villain can obviously bet a very wide range here, and I'm ahead here pretty often. Don't see much value in raising

Turn: ($262, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.
I expected villain to fire turn again with all overcards that had a high club, and I prepared to push over his semibluff. Now that he checks I'd imagine he's pretty weak and I can check through

River: ($262, 2 players)
BB bets $150, Hero raises all-in $1111.16, BB to call $250
Not sure what he's betting now. I can't see him having a strong club given turn, so I push to take him off some midpair type hand with a weak club


Hand 2
-villain in this hand is a pretty nitty reg. We have had 3-betting wars on other days, but nothing too crazy yet in this session. He probably views me as pretty spewy preflop from other sessions but I don't think I've gotten too out of line with him postflop

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $5/$10
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
SB: $816.45
UTG: $1140
CO: $3230
Button: $277.50
SB: $990
Hero: $1108

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with
UTG raises to $34, 3 folds, Hero calls.
He's pretty nitty so I imagine I have decent set odds against him, especially since he's raising from UTG

Flop: ($73, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks.
I can see him checking through this flop with AK/AT type hands, and possibly QQ/JJ though prob not too much given draws. I would imagine he'd bet all OESD and FD's on this flop

Turn: ($73, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $55, Hero raises to $177, UTG calls.
Turn brings a pretty good card to bluff since I've discounted FD from his range by checking flop. c/ring turn to rep the flush, and wouldn't be surprised if he called with AdK or AKd or AdT or something like that. I really can't see a very strong pair at this point

River: ($427, 2 players)
Hero bets $370??
I'm a little confused in this spot. Wasn't sure if i should bet in case he somehow got to the river with a mid pair type hand or a J or to check since he likely has overcards and I have SD value
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nutsinho
Old 03-12-2008, 04:15 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 i like your thinking and river play in 1, although id prefer putting in the extra action on every previous street including preflop. In 2 its more likely he checks back a hand with clear showdown value on flop if he decides to not cbet after raising utg, such as AJs. I dont attempt to win this pot.
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Irisheyes
Old 03-12-2008, 06:37 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Hand 2) Really the only thing I can imagine plays this way is something marginal with the Ad. I've no idea wtf else he could have. Given that I think the best line is to bet like $260 on the river. It doesn't need to be a big bluff to get him off the hands I think he has.

1) I don't really like the call preflop, I'd rather 4bet this reverse implieds type hand. I like the flopturnriver.com and the thinking behind them considering you get there.
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pocketfours
Old 03-12-2008, 11:00 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1: I prefer to fold preflop (or 4-bet). Shoving the river is a clear mistake. No way you have the nuts here and there is very little value in shoving a worse flush. Which AcXx hand are you representing? AcXc hands would always bet the turn, so you are representing an offsuit AcXx hand that you called a 3-bet with pre and on the flop. There is no such hand.

I also really don't see why villain could not have a strong club here. The fear of a check-raise will often give him a free card on the turn.

Hand 2: Most people would lead turn with a flush so representing it with a check-raise seems thin. This line usually and rightfully doesn't get much credit. Check river and let him bluff his Ad type hand, then snapcall.
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Irisheyes
Old 03-12-2008, 11:08 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours

Hand 2: Most people would lead turn with a flush so representing it with a check-raise seems thin. This line usually and rightfully doesn't get much credit. Check river and let him bluff his Ad type hand, then snapcall.
Dude thats a serious thin snap call you're planning.
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nutsinho
Old 03-12-2008, 01:03 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 well if he bets big on river in 2 i would call, if he bets smallish i would fold. he cant really have a strong hand
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pocketfours
Old 03-12-2008, 01:06 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours

Hand 2: Most people would lead turn with a flush so representing it with a check-raise seems thin. This line usually and rightfully doesn't get much credit. Check river and let him bluff his Ad type hand, then snapcall.
Dude thats a serious thin snap call you're planning.
YEAH, it's thin, but as you said yourself his hand looks a lot like AdX and I just don't see what hand villain can bet for value after we c/r:d the turn. Thin value isn't good here since our range is polarized (contains fairly strong hands and missed draws), so it's very hard for villain to put us on a weak made hand. If we are behind then villain will probably check also, but this seems to be a decent spot for villain to bluff after we show weakness.

We snap because we decide already when we check that it's a c/sc and stick to our plan. Bad luck if he has 33.
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pocketfours
Old 03-12-2008, 01:19 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nutsinho
well if he bets big on river in 2 i would call, if he bets smallish i would fold. he cant really have a strong hand
I'm just as inclined to call a small bet since I don't think he can make a thin value bet here.
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griffey24
Old 03-12-2008, 01:55 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Hand 1: I prefer to fold preflop (or 4-bet). Shoving the river is a clear mistake. No way you have the nuts here and there is very little value in shoving a worse flush. Which AcXx hand are you representing? AcXc hands would always bet the turn, so you are representing an offsuit AcXx hand that you called a 3-bet with pre and on the flop. There is no such hand.

I also really don't see why villain could not have a strong club here. The fear of a check-raise will often give him a free card on the turn.

Hand 2: Most people would lead turn with a flush so representing it with a check-raise seems thin. This line usually and rightfully doesn't get much credit. Check river and let him bluff his Ad type hand, then snapcall.
So a few of you are saying to 4-bet hand 1 pre if I want to play. Are we 4-bet/calling in this spot? If so, does that not lead to the same bad spot of having bad reverse implied odds post flop, except we're just getting it in here pre with all the hands that dominate us anyhow (AK/AQ etc)? At least calling here we have position and can potentially take this hand away when we both miss?

Pocketfours - I agree that hand 1 is kinda messed. I think I sometimes convince myself that villain can't have a certain hand (ie: high club) and try repping it myself, when it doesn't make sense for me to have it either.

Hand 2 - When did c/ring flushes go out of style!? Man I'm behind the times. I'd imagine a turn/river lead lead line would be more believable and potentially get more folds.

Pocketfours -if we lead turn and he calls, is this river more/less of a 'snap check call' with 6's than the line I took above?
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pocketfours
Old 03-12-2008, 02:39 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
So a few of you are saying to 4-bet hand 1 pre if I want to play. Are we 4-bet/calling in this spot? If so, does that not lead to the same bad spot of having bad reverse implied odds post flop, except we're just getting it in here pre with all the hands that dominate us anyhow (AK/AQ etc)? At least calling here we have position and can potentially take this hand away when we both miss?
There's a lot of different ways to 4-bet bluff and you will need a balanced strategy for that. It depends on your image and how likely you think villain will 5-bet bluff (among many other things). 4-bet bluffing is a very advanced meta-game type of play and practice makes the master.

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
Pocketfours - I agree that hand 1 is kinda messed. I think I sometimes convince myself that villain can't have a certain hand (ie: high club) and try repping it myself, when it doesn't make sense for me to have it either.
This is why you post hands here and improve your play. It's not easy to realize that you can't have the hand you are representing when you only have a few seconds to act. That's why I recommend that you ONLY bluff when it is obvious that the hand(s) you are representing are in your range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
Hand 2 - When did c/ring flushes go out of style!? Man I'm behind the times. I'd imagine a turn/river lead lead line would be more believable and potentially get more folds.
Here you usually shouldn't c/r a flush because villain will check behind too often (he is not expected to bet) AND you should have balanced your turn leads with bluffs. If villain has often checked behind on the flop but lead the turn when checked to, only then should a c/r have merit (both as a bluff and for value).

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
Pocketfours -if we lead turn and he calls, is this river more/less of a 'snap check call' with 6's than the line I took above?
Turn lead and call situation is very different. I would be less inclined to c/c in that situation against a very good player since he can value bet KJ in that situation. Against a mediocre player c/c can still be good because the line doesn't make sense in the traditional way. So my answer is not "more" or "less", but that you have to take different things into account.
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griffey24
Old 03-12-2008, 04:27 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
So a few of you are saying to 4-bet hand 1 pre if I want to play. Are we 4-bet/calling in this spot? If so, does that not lead to the same bad spot of having bad reverse implied odds post flop, except we're just getting it in here pre with all the hands that dominate us anyhow (AK/AQ etc)? At least calling here we have position and can potentially take this hand away when we both miss?
There's a lot of different ways to 4-bet bluff and you will need a balanced strategy for that. It depends on your image and how likely you think villain will 5-bet bluff (among many other things). 4-bet bluffing is a very advanced meta-game type of play and practice makes the master.

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
Pocketfours - I agree that hand 1 is kinda messed. I think I sometimes convince myself that villain can't have a certain hand (ie: high club) and try repping it myself, when it doesn't make sense for me to have it either.
This is why you post hands here and improve your play. It's not easy to realize that you can't have the hand you are representing when you only have a few seconds to act. That's why I recommend that you ONLY bluff when it is obvious that the hand(s) you are representing are in your range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
Hand 2 - When did c/ring flushes go out of style!? Man I'm behind the times. I'd imagine a turn/river lead lead line would be more believable and potentially get more folds.
Here you usually shouldn't c/r a flush because villain will check behind too often (he is not expected to bet) AND you should have balanced your turn leads with bluffs. If villain has often checked behind on the flop but lead the turn when checked to, only then should a c/r have merit (both as a bluff and for value).

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
Pocketfours -if we lead turn and he calls, is this river more/less of a 'snap check call' with 6's than the line I took above?
Turn lead and call situation is very different. I would be less inclined to c/c in that situation against a very good player since he can value bet KJ in that situation. Against a mediocre player c/c can still be good because the line doesn't make sense in the traditional way. So my answer is not "more" or "less", but that you have to take different things into account.
Thanks for the good response pocketfours! I'll definitely keep this stuff in mind.

I definitely need to work on my "3-bet pots" game.

You should start playing high stakes again and start posting some hands!
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pocketfours
Old 03-12-2008, 05:35 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
You should start playing high stakes again and start posting some hands!
Some day I will again.
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sauce123
Old 03-12-2008, 11:37 PM #13 (permalink)  
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i call hand 1 waaay before i shove

i check call hand 2

dont love either of ur lines here
I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
 
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Genitruc
Old 03-13-2008, 02:31 AM #14 (permalink)  
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 good thread
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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griffey24
Old 03-13-2008, 06:29 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Hand 1: I prefer to fold preflop (or 4-bet). Shoving the river is a clear mistake. No way you have the nuts here and there is very little value in shoving a worse flush. Which AcXx hand are you representing? AcXc hands would always bet the turn, so you are representing an offsuit AcXx hand that you called a 3-bet with pre and on the flop. There is no such hand.

I also really don't see why villain could not have a strong club here. The fear of a check-raise will often give him a free card on the turn.
I like this analysis.

I agree that AcXc is not in my range, but not so much cause I didn't bet the turn but moreso cause I can't see how I woudln't be pushing this flop in a 3-bet pot with that hand.

As for AcXx hands, this would have to be some sort of flop float with AcK or AcQ or something like that I'd imagine. But yah I agree there aren't many offsuit Ac hands I could have, other than maybe Ac9x or something... though I prob don't call that pre.

If you are villain in this hand, what is your calling range against the line I took?
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Irisheyes
Old 03-13-2008, 09:05 AM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours

Hand 2: Most people would lead turn with a flush so representing it with a check-raise seems thin. This line usually and rightfully doesn't get much credit. Check river and let him bluff his Ad type hand, then snapcall.
Dude thats a serious thin snap call you're planning.
YEAH, it's thin, but as you said yourself his hand looks a lot like AdX and I just don't see what hand villain can bet for value after we c/r:d the turn. Thin value isn't good here since our range is polarized (contains fairly strong hands and missed draws), so it's very hard for villain to put us on a weak made hand. If we are behind then villain will probably check also, but this seems to be a decent spot for villain to bluff after we show weakness.

We snap because we decide already when we check that it's a c/sc and stick to our plan. Bad luck if he has 33.
There's value in the thought that if we check he sometimes checks behind with weak best hands that he would have folded to a lead. Something like Ad8.
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