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griffey24
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12-01-2008, 09:02 PM
Post subject: 5/10 - Hand vs Alexos, he donks 3 streets
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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-First big hand of the session between Alexos and I
-From what I can tell, I've been playing very in line vs him this whole session (which is rare... MUCH more inline than normal)
-I've raised him a few times postflop with legit hands but he's folded each time.. so he could still possibly be thinking I'm making plays
-Alexos hasn't donked into me all session, and it confused me that he'd do it here given that I'm UTG open
-I'd expect him, to expect me to float flop and possibly even turn with AK/AQ type hands.. but not sure about river
-I think river, folding/calling and shoving can all be decent lines. What's best?
$5/$10 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
Hero (UTG) ($2643.75)
UTG+1 ($643.25)
CO ($969.00)
BTN ($1338.00)
SB ($1200.00)
BB ($895.00)
Pre-flop: ($15, 6 players) Hero is UTG  
Hero raises to $34, 3 folds, SB calls $29, 1 fold
Flop:    ($78, 2 players)
SB bets $55, Hero calls $55
Turn:  ($188, 2 players)
SB bets $133, Hero calls $133
River:  ($454, 2 players)
SB bets $344, Hero ??
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
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i like shoving more than calling
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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I'd just fold the turn. He's probably not bluffing you too often on this board texture and even if he is, you're still calling this turn card with the majority of the hands that called the flop so it's not like you're getting exploited if you call flop and fold turn with 66.
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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also agree about shoving river > calling... its not even close
it would also put me on massive tilt 
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
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also agree about folding turn if u dont plan on shoving river
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
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Toadstool
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 442
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Agree with analysis so far....fold turn unless you plan on shoving river...Not sure how often he flats big pairs preflop, but the lower that % the more I like shoving river. It's a lot more likely for you to have 4's full of Aces etc then it is for him.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Seems that most people think shoving is greater than calling with my particular hand.
How high would my pair have to be for most people to start considering calling here?
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 1,242
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
Seems that most people think shoving is greater than calling with my particular hand.
How high would my pair have to be for most people to start considering calling here?
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99 imo and i'm shoving JJ and up
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Family Cruise IMO
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
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for value that is
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Family Cruise IMO
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
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Can someone explain why we'd want to call turn and shove the river with a 2-outer? This just seems like a massive blunder from a range balancing standpoint, can we at least have a hand like AK/AQ if we're going to take that line, where we at least have some semblance of equity vs. his value range?
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
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to rep JJ+ ldo
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
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So we're just going to rep JJ+ with basically our entire UTG raising range (since basically every hand we'd float the flop with has more equity on the turn vs. your range than 66 has here). Do you really suck that bad that you'd let people get away with this?
still so confused
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baudib
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I love threads like this.
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Playing big pots at small stakes.
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
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mcat- i sort of get your point but im not sure u get mine/ours
also i dont think many people are good enough to turn their hand into a bluff on river so i dont rly get wat ur saying
wat, its late
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
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I guess it depends if we look at the hand as being vs a villain with those stats/description or being against precisely Alexos. If it's the former I like the shove (moreso with ak/aq/anytwo for mcat's reasons which i like) and against the latter i think i shove because fk him that's why
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Family Cruise IMO
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
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Gah sorry for double posts but something i wanted to mention. I think so many villains in these types of hands get frozen by the river shove and timedown/fold (this is the reaction I have to fight if i have like 88 here) without going through a logical analysis of the hand etc.
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Family Cruise IMO
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
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mcat, I agree with you that calling down here with the intention of shoving 66 is complete spew (and is way better with a hand like AK/AQ at least). At the same time, villain (alexos) rarely shows up here with QQ+ in this spot, so it puts him in a tough spot unless he's willing to always play for stacks the second he donks into me as UTG on this board.
I think I honestly shove this river against most regs I play with, if I get to river. Alex and I have too much history for me to try a river bluff shove though, cause I'm pretty sure he's not folding anything he bets three streets with here for value, against me in particular. But I agree with people saying shoving > calling at least.
I think mcat may be right though, that folding turn is probably best. Honestly, his line just so so so confused me, in terms of what hands he'd be doing this for value with. I had to look him up here... damn curiosity... and I mean, how often is 66 EVER an overpair to the board by the river? That in itself is worth $344 imo!
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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I think I'm more interested in Alexos' spot from the sb. What sort of leading range do you have here and why? I see a lot of value in leading 99+, but c/c like 88- or whatever other hands you may want to play (aka have a very exploitable c/c flop cbet range) versus some players, especially less bluffy ones.
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I think I'm more interested in Alexos' spot from the sb. What sort of leading range do you have here and why? I see a lot of value in leading 99+, but c/c like 88- or whatever other hands you may want to play (aka have a very exploitable c/c flop cbet range) versus some players, especially less bluffy ones.
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probably a balanced range here.. small pairs for protection (but not 3 streets of value).. 99+ for 3 streets of value.. and overcards a decent amount that i will probably barrel a certain %
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Alexos
probably a balanced range here.. small pairs for protection (but not 3 streets of value).. 99+ for 3 streets of value.. and overcards a decent amount that i will probably barrel a certain %
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It seems like your just setting yourself up for disaster with leading a small pair here. I'd def just check call them versus pretty much everyone.
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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hmm yah small pairs is probably the exception on this board. I think I just lead a lot more than most people, and it works very well if you do it vs the right opponents, and if u have a grasp of what theyre capable of.
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
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the correct answer is to fold on the flop ainec
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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the correct answer is to fold on the flop ainec
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That's what I thought instantly when I read the OP, good to know I don't suck quite as bad as I did two years ago.
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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jeez i think i was better 2 yrs ago
i think i had JJ here, prob calling a shove vs griffey aka darkspewos lol
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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haha oh man, this hand was back in the good ol' days.
I remember Alex having TT in this hand.
But yah, in retrospect I think folding flop is best, since he's never/rarely bluffing here.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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He probably has QQ+
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dkball
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High Card
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 4
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ya although it sounds nitty flop fold is best imos. i'd rather continue w/ broadways than 66. like, you're turn spot is gonna suck when he double barrells, and who actually just donk leads there and c/f turn. his flatting range from the small blind should be pretty tight too and def has slow played big pairs. and agree that river shove > call. dont think you're getting exploited by folding 66 there if u play the rest of your range well.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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my first thought was to fold flop also but i just assumed i was terrible nit
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
my first thought was to fold flop also but i just assumed i was terrible nit
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+1
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sauce123
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id prob fold turn
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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PokerWiz
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3-of-a-Kind
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If it's true that he never bluffs then I think folding flop would be best. I personally wouldn't do it though. I think I'd re-raise on the flop.
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