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5/10: four hands same villain

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pocketfours

05-24-2010, 04:20 AM Post subject: 5/10: four hands same villain

#1 (permalink)

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Playing on a european pokersite. Villain in every hand is a LAG reg (UK). I haven't played with him before this session.

My image is quite bad and I've been caught bluffing several times. Pretty crazy preflop game going on. His 3bet for the session was over 15%, mine was around 12%.

===========================
Hand 1: Any value here?

No-Limit Hold'em, $10.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (BB) ($1028.50)
UTG ($1281.26)
MP ($1025)
CO ($138.75)
Button ($1403)
SB ($1668.75)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A

, 8

4 folds, SB bets $25, Hero raises $80, SB calls $60

Flop: ($180) 2

, 4

, A

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($180) K

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($180) 5

(2 players)
SB bets $150, Hero folds

===========================
Hand 2: Standard?

No-Limit Hold'em, $10.00 BB (3 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($3634.75)
Button ($812.25)
Hero (SB) ($1659.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J

, J

1 fold, Hero bets $30, BB raises $100, Hero calls $75

Flop: ($220) 7

, 4

, 10

(2 players)
Hero bets $155, BB raises $465, Hero raises $1394.50 (All-In)

===========================
Hand 3: Turn and river play?

No-Limit Hold'em, $10.00 BB (3 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($2889.45)
Hero (UTG) ($1132)
MP ($985)
CO ($939.33)
Button ($382.75)
SB ($390)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A

, A

Hero bets $30, 1 fold, CO calls $30, 2 folds, BB calls $20

Flop: ($95) K

, 5

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $66, CO calls $66, 1 fold

Turn: ($227) 6

(2 players)
Hero bets $155, CO raises $310, Hero calls $155

River: ($847) A

(2 players)
Hero should bet or check with $533.33 eff behind?

===========================
Hand 4: BB is villain, BU is a TAG reg.

No-Limit Hold'em, $10.00 BB (3 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($2590.75)
Button ($1794.50)
Hero (SB) ($2420.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K

, A

Button bets $35, Hero calls $30, BB raises $130, 1 fold, Hero calls $105

Flop: ($315) 7

, 6

, A

(2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks

Turn: ($315) K

(2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $150, Hero calls $150

River: ($615) J

(2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $350, Hero calls $350

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IowaSkinsFan

05-24-2010, 06:02 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Hand 1: I don't like the preflop 3bet, but I suppose if he's opening the SB a shit ton its fine. I'd bet the flop and check turn. As played its meh but I suppose folding is correct on the river.
Hand 2: I think 4betting pre here is best given dynamic. As played, c/c flop. Leading seems really bad here, as does building a big pot whatsoever.
Hand 3: I think checking is slightly better, not sure if hes not putting all his money in no matter what you do. It would be so crazy if he was bluffing but for some reason I can fathom him calling the flop with pure air.
Hand 4: I like it

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griffey24

05-24-2010, 06:39 PM

#3 (permalink)

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You say there's a crazy aggro dynamic going on, with lots of bluffing and lots of craziness. If that's the case, I don't get a few of these hands.

Hand 1: you have a crazy image, how are we not betting this flop? Checking this flop looks way scarier (less airy) than actually betting it. At least bet the turn?...

How is the river not a snap call after we play the hand this way? I would value bet Kx if I was villain, given our hand looks entirely like TT-QQ.

Hand 2: Agree with ISF. If everyone's image is so crazy, we should def 4bet pre. Wouldn't be surprised if he floated you with garbage given stacks and he has position. As played, I'd probably just c/c down.

Hand 3: I would check. He's shoving a flush and calling a shove with a flush. He might even perceive the ace as a scare card if he has nonsense.

Hand 4: The thing that confuses me about a lot of your hands is that you say you are bluffy and show lots of bluffy hands. But when it comes to value betting in your hands, it seems as though you're hardly value betting.. and trapping more.. which certainly doesn't balance that well with all the bluffing.

I would bet the turn and river.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

pocketfours

05-24-2010, 09:30 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by griffey24

You say there's a crazy aggro dynamic going on, with lots of bluffing and lots of craziness. If that's the case, I don't get a few of these hands..

I haven't been caught making any bad or spewy plays and I'm sure he thinks I'm a solid player. I do bluff when I have a wide value range but very rarely when I don't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by griffey24

Hand 1: you have a crazy image, how are we not betting this flop? Checking this flop looks way scarier (less airy) than actually betting it. At least bet the turn?...

How is the river not a snap call after we play the hand this way? I would value bet Kx if I was villain, given our hand looks entirely like TT-QQ.

In my opinion I've got negative equity vs his calling range so I chose not to bet at any point. On the river I think it's very close but I chose to fold because I couldn't put him on a bluff and I also think I haven't got enough equity vs his value range. I do agree that he could bet his three combos of KQs like this, but that's a small part of his range. I also thought he would probably bet KQs slightly smaller.

Quote:

Originally Posted by griffey24

Hand 2: Agree with ISF. If everyone's image is so crazy, we should def 4bet pre. Wouldn't be surprised if he floated you with garbage given stacks and he has position. As played, I'd probably just c/c down.

FWIW his 3bet BB against steal was at 31%. I think c/c flop is a terrible idea. He's just going to check back the turn like always and try to hit what he needs to hit. Not very many good cards for my hand in the deck. He will also pot control the flop with a weaker pair very often.

I think a 4bet is perfectly fine but since he is the type to flat them and play back I want to make big 4bets deep oop so I decided to polarize and flat this one instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by griffey24

Hand 3: I would check. He's shoving a flush and calling a shove with a flush. He might even perceive the ace as a scare card if he has nonsense.

I thought this was one of those spots where I could use my image to induce a pretty bad call from 5x. I definitely don't think he bets that and I don't think he is bluffing. If he has a flush it doesn't matter what I do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by griffey24

Hand 4: The thing that confuses me about a lot of your hands is that you say you are bluffy and show lots of bluffy hands. But when it comes to value betting in your hands, it seems as though you're hardly value betting.. and trapping more.. which certainly doesn't balance that well with all the bluffing.

Who is trapping? I just flat a squeeze OOP, I don't think I have a bluffing range here at all after he checks back the flop and I think that's perfectly obvious to him. He on the other hand does have a wide bluffing range and with that a thin value range. I didn't want to shut him out.

I like my value betting game so I usually don't post those hands as I don't find them very interesting.

Luke999

05-24-2010, 09:46 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Hand 1: surely your hand is so under repped this is an easy call, does he not bet Kx here hoping you'll call a hand like 1010? I mean does he really think you checking back an ace twice?

Hand 3: River is an easy C/C. If you lead shove he is folding all his air, and I mean he is gonna be betting nearly all his value range here and bluffs.

Hand 5: I feel like we are missing out on a ton of value here by not raising either the turn or river.

griffey24

05-24-2010, 09:50 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Hand 1 - I agree with you that I don't think he'd necessarily bet KQ that strong. I guess a better question would be, what hand that you are playing this way would ever call a river bet of his sizing?

Hand 2 - I agree with you that c/c'ing we will be put into quite a few tough spots. At the same time, given his initiative, stack sizes and the perceived weakness of our hand, he's also somewhat more likely to run a big bluff against us. Assuming he has a big bluff in him. Depends how spazzy/aggro you think he is I guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

Numbr2intheWorld

05-24-2010, 10:56 PM

#7 (permalink)

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This is all just way too fpsy

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pocketfours

05-24-2010, 10:59 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by griffey24

55/33/A5s/A5o/A3s/A3o/45s/34s, possibly K3s/K5s.

Quote:

Originally Posted by griffey24

Hand 2 - I agree with you that c/c'ing we will be put into quite a few tough spots. At the same time, given his initiative, stack sizes and the perceived weakness of our hand, he's also somewhat more likely to run a big bluff against us. Assuming he has a big bluff in him. Depends how spazzy/aggro you think he is I guess.

He didn't seem spazzy at all, but certainly he could go three barrels on this board. I just don't think he will do that with hands that have bad equity. I very much doubt that he folds Tx at any point if I lead and keep betting.

I'm not really expecting him to fold many hands to this lead so it's not like I don't win anything vs his air. He certainly peels with all his weak paired hands that probably wouldn't cbet anyway.

pocketfours

05-24-2010, 11:04 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Numbr2intheWorld

This is all just way too fpsy

Yeah I didn't play these ABC which is why I posted them but I would be very happy to hear more of your thoughts if possible Max?

gabe

05-25-2010, 05:47 AM

#10 (permalink)

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gabe is an unknown quantity at this point

with the crazy preflop history, i would put in another raise with JJ and AK and not 3bet a8...

pocketfours

05-25-2010, 03:36 PM

#11 (permalink)

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I think preflop isn't very interesting in any of these hands and gameflow certainly affected my decisions, which isn't described here.

I still have no idea why max thinks these are fpsy?

griffey24

05-25-2010, 06:24 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketfours

I still have no idea why max thinks these are fpsy?

cause the only standardly played hand is hand 3?!

Even that isn't standard, if you ended up shoving the river!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

pocketfours

05-25-2010, 08:44 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by griffey24

cause the only standardly played hand is hand 3?!

Even that isn't standard, if you ended up shoving the river!

Yeah I don't play standard.

Numbr2intheWorld

05-25-2010, 11:47 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketfours

Yeah I didn't play these ABC which is why I posted them but I would be very happy to hear more of your thoughts if possible Max?

hand 1) Why would you have a checking range on this flop?

hand 2) He has a enormous 3betting range and will likely continue without a lot of his range to a 4bet (usually by calling). So i'd 4bet a big pair here.

hand 3) this one wasnt fpsy at all soo...

hand 4) I would 3bet pre almost always, no idea why you'd want to flat pre here (although i do understand why youd flat the squeeze after calling).

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sauce123

05-26-2010, 12:11 AM

#15 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketfours

, 8

4 folds, SB bets $25, Hero raises $80, SB calls $60

Flop: ($180) 2

, 4

, A

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($180) K

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($180) 5

, J

1 fold, Hero bets $30, BB raises $100, Hero calls $75

Flop: ($220) 7

, 4

, 10

, A

Hero bets $30, 1 fold, CO calls $30, 2 folds, BB calls $20

Flop: ($95) K

, 5

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $66, CO calls $66, 1 fold

Turn: ($227) 6

(2 players)
Hero bets $155, CO raises $310, Hero calls $155

River: ($847) A

, A

Button bets $35, Hero calls $30, BB raises $130, 1 fold, Hero calls $105

Flop: ($315) 7

, 6

, A

(2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks

Turn: ($315) K

(2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $150, Hero calls $150

River: ($615) J

(2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $350, Hero calls $350

hand 1- i like bet/chk/chk much more, as well as 1/4th, 1/4th, 1/4th. dont worry too much about a CR, and for similar reasons i wouldnt worry too much about inducing bruffs. river is a tight but ok fold, though id usually call, idk page nuts in ho he is good at deciding river in this spot, but then he would have a plan wouldnt he ???

hand 2- i would 4bet a lot. on flop, all your options are good obviously and you can consider yourself committed. i think your lead line will induce a fair amount of bluffs because with stacks you have a very small range of strong hands which will play well leading. for example, bet/3betting a draw is ideal in this spot if we have even like 20% FE which we do against Mr. LAG, but you are in an annoying spot on a blank turn with a bit over a PSB behind OOP when your lead is flatted, which might make him think your lead is more nuts/air type hands, and might make him bluff more. and then you jam ofc.

that's an argument for leading though, i could just as easily make an argument for anything else because u have the relative nuts. and the runner draw, godamn !

hand 3- river is a no brainer check cmon ! if he has Kx, it is now a bluff, if he has a flush he goes all in, if he has a five he goes all in, if he has a float it is still a bluff. the only case in which you maximize by jamming is if he floated flop with a bare A high, decided to bluffraise turn, but not bluffjam river and then decided to call ur incredibly strong line with his rivered bluffcather cause his brain melted.

hand 4- your line seems fine, probably best.

I got more flava than fruitstripe gum

sauce123

05-26-2010, 12:22 AM

#16 (permalink)

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see after reading all the responses in this thread, no one else seems to think that a lead looks weak because of stack sizes in hand 2-if we lead 155 and are flatted we have like 1350 into a 725 pot on turn which seems to suck a lot for our 98 type stuff.

the real point of hand 2 is that if he flats the vast majority of his (wide) preflop 3betting range to a 4bet, then you should certainly 4bet, if he does not, then i would just go ahead and call and take the initiative postflop with either CR or lead, but playing any sort of pot control line on that board after flatting the preflop 3bet and insuring his range is wide is silly. if we never get it in against a worse made hand we still make a ton of money because he will be folding significantly too much of his range postflop.

I got more flava than fruitstripe gum

pocketfours

05-26-2010, 09:41 AM

#17 (permalink)

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Very nice posts, thanks Ben!

Hand 2: He likes to flat small 4bets but not big ones. I really don't want to have both a small-4bet range and a big-4bet range when I'm deep and OOP. About postflop I'm happy you think the b/3b line is fine, the guys were tilting me big time with saying c/c. Villain folded to my shove.

Hand 3: Yeah checking is clearly optimal. I had a huge momentum at this point and I really didn't want him to own me by checking back his 5x so I shoved (he called with 52). I also thought that if I check with a long timing at this point it's going to increase the chance he checks back. I'll know to snap check next time.

I would absolutely not shove 5x as villain on this river by the way.

nutsinho

05-27-2010, 11:51 AM

#18 (permalink)

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1. DEFINITELY put a bet in on flop or turn. checking twice is quite bad w/ this hand and as an overall gameplan. I think id call the river, i mean does he expect you to call a big bet w/ TT-QQ at this point? Don't you think he is just bluffing sometimes? Not a lot of players make this bluff but jeez its such a subtly awesome spot and that in tandem w/ him almost definitely vbetting KJs/KQs means im clicking call. I Don't hate the fold though.

3. check river in rhythm. Taking an unusual amount of time to think is definitely a mistake, but having done so I would jam. And i think someone bad enough to raise any hand on the turn here is definitely going to jam the river w/ 5x.

2 and 4 seem good

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pocketfours

05-27-2010, 12:57 PM

#19 (permalink)

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Thanks Rich!

By da way I was defo going to bet hand one somewhere. His timing on the turn threw me off so I wanted to see what he does on the last street. Turn timing in combination with river sizing made me think fold, so in the muck they went.

gabe

06-09-2010, 07:46 PM

#20 (permalink)

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why doesnt anyone like c/r river in the last hand? look at his bet sizing. i would never call that

pocketfours

06-10-2010, 01:16 AM

#21 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

why doesnt anyone like c/r river in the last hand? look at his bet sizing. i would never call that

You calling a shove?

I simply didn't think he would call with worse even though I probably have the best hand very often. He certainly might bluff though. After two coldcalls pre oop my range is going to be super narrow.

griffey24

06-10-2010, 03:09 AM

#22 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

why doesnt anyone like c/r river in the last hand? look at his bet sizing. i would never call that

I think it's close. I just can't imagine that many worse hands calling a c/r here.

He probably has 1 combo of AA and 1 of KK that beat us. JJ is conceivable, I'll discount it a bit due to his turn bet, so maybe 1 more combo of that. So we're beat by 3 combos and he's for sure b/c those.

Does he squeeze AJ pre? Does he check flop? and does he b/c river? Probably not that many combos of AJ that play this way, and that's the only worse hand I can imagine b/c here. So 6 total combos of AJ, and maybe 1-2 play this way and b/c.

So probably not worth it to raise here I don't think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

sauce123

06-10-2010, 05:19 PM

#23 (permalink)

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gabe- stacks are deep ish, and his pf range contains AK/KK/AA/QTcc (maybe) and then maybe AQ/AJ, and then the odd combo of 76/a7/a6/k7/k6 for value, as well as a large proportion of bluffs. since a bluff from our end is suicidal against a polarized range, and our range should contain a lottt of A8s-AQ and the occasional 77/66/ pair + FD, it looks like a c/r bluff is -ev and a c/r for value with AK is -ev relative to a c/c while a c/r jam with 66+ is probably +ev against most relative to a call....

I got more flava than fruitstripe gum

sauce123

06-10-2010, 05:23 PM

#24 (permalink)

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betsizing shouldn't particularly matter here, any bet he makes on the river represents AQ+ for value and the large majority of our range is bluffcatching. he also *should* have a pretty high bluffing freq, some people might even get up as high as 40% in this spot. so his sizing is just manipulating our pot odds when we bluffcatch and i think not polarizing his range to hands like AQ/AK/A6 rather than AA/KK

I got more flava than fruitstripe gum

IowaSkinsFan

06-11-2010, 11:56 PM

#25 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

betsizing shouldn't particularly matter here, any bet he makes on the river represents AQ+ for value

I disagree and I think I agree with gabe. Its way more likely he has thin value here than nut value when he bets this big imo.

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IowaSkinsFan

06-11-2010, 11:58 PM

#26 (permalink)

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And by bets this big I mean small (lol)

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sauce123

06-12-2010, 05:07 PM

#27 (permalink)

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yea i thought he bet the flop.... whoooops....

idk now, i mean we lose to exactly KK here given action so id pop em on the river

I got more flava than fruitstripe gum

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