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pocketfours
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12-18-2007, 02:38 PM
Post subject: 5/10: Defend underpair?
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
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Very common spot. Villain is a fairly decent regular running 32/22/3.
He is threebetting a ton and cbets reraised pot every single time. I don't think he 3-bets garbage oop against utg raise though.
Both have solid image.
Seat 3: SB ($919.15 in chips)
Seat 4: BB ($1,013.00 in chips)
Seat 6: HERO [ 4D,4S ] ($974.00 in chips)
Seat 10: BUTTON ($2,603.30 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
SB posts blind ($5), BB posts blind ($10).
PRE-FLOP
HERO bets $35, BUTTON folds, SB folds, BB bets $113, HERO calls $88.
FLOP [board cards 7C,7D,8D ]
BB bets $136, HERO...?
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
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fold preflop/fold flop
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Yah I'm with sauce here, I'd just drop this pre.
If we were deeper I might call here to hit a set or outplay postflop in position, but not for only 100bb's.
as played, I fold flop.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Yeah, the call pre is a mistake, but since we have position and the raise isn't very big, I don't think it's a major one.
I'm not happy letting this one go though. I think a raise (representing 88-QQ) here will take this one down virtually every time he only has overcards and sometimes when he also has an underpair. Besides, his cbet looks weak.
I think his range here is something like KQs/QJs/AJ-AK/TT-AA, which means he will have overcards 65% of the time since he cbets 100%.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Do you have any reads on what he does in 3-bet pots after he is called? Does he double barrel, cause if he givesup once called you can just float him instead of raising the flop.
Cheaper way to find out whre you're at potentially.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
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ya p4s-if I continue I float and I don't like this spot much. This is one of the places where two small mistakes on early streets can lead to large ones for ur stack pretty often. LOL I'm nitty
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
ya p4s-if I continue I float and I don't like this spot much. This is one of the places where two small mistakes on early streets can lead to large ones for ur stack pretty often. LOL I'm nitty
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Yah I agree, I get into this spot too often. Where I raise LP and get 3-bet and I call with some marginal hand. now the only way I decide I can win this hand is to float the flop... turn comes.. "sweet he checked, now I can steal it!" .. I bet 2/3's pot to steal... "noooo he check raised me... there goes 70bb's stupidly"
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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I'm not very happy letting him draw to 6 outs. Reraising a wide range oop and cbetting every flop is just ridiculous. Because of my image I'm sure he isn't going to mess around with overcards if I raise, but if I just call he might fire another barrel on the turn or the river and then I have to give up.
But as you both said, better to just fold pre and avoid these marginal spots.
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minSim
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How much do you want to raise?
I can see why you like raising. I'm not sure how good it is.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by minSim
How much do you want to raise?
I can see why you like raising. I'm not sure how good it is.
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There is $387 in the pot. If I raise to $300 I only need to take the pot down 43% of the time, and since my preflop reads (range assessment) tell me that he will fold 65% of the time, this should be profitable with a good margin. Actually my read is that his cbet is weak and I expect to take this pot down 80% of the time.
With a bad image and against someone who likes to shove AK on a dry flop like this I certainly don't recommend this play.
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gabe
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i fold flop but call preflop all day
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gabe
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also i like raising alot more than calling
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pocketfours
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
also i like raising alot more than calling
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Against you this seems like an easy psb + call shove, no?
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Pelion
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
i fold flop but call preflop all day
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this confuses me. Short of a set isnt this the perfect flop for us? His range must be way to big to play just for a set?
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
i fold flop but call preflop all day
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this confuses me. Short of a set isnt this the perfect flop for us? His range must be way to big to play just for a set? |
Me too. Since we aren't really getting set odds and we know he will cbet every time, how can we call pre and fold here when this is flop is very unlikely to have hit him?
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gabe
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we definitely are getting set odds. this flop sucks because two overcards has 9 outs to beat us.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
we definitely are getting set odds. this flop sucks because two overcards has 9 outs to beat us.
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Hmm, I guess we need to have a HS discussion about set odds. I would think that since his range is so wide here we aren't getting the correct odds, but I really haven't thought about this enough...
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
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We do not have pure set odds but we sure as hell have position!
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
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what about 4-bet value-bluffing pre
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Numbr2intheWorld
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i also think this is a fold pre.
4-betting sometimes obviously isn't bad
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sauce123
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
we definitely are getting set odds. this flop sucks because two overcards has 9 outs to beat us.
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Hmm, I guess we need to have a HS discussion about set odds. I would think that since his range is so wide here we aren't getting the correct odds, but I really haven't thought about this enough... |
ive thought about this a lot and we really, really dont have set odds. me and gabe obviously dont agree on this, just like we dont agree on calling 74s in position.
P4s- if u wanna slow this guy and his absurd cbetting % down, dont pick 44 to do it with. you are flopping "big" like 1/7 of the time and id assume that leaves u move making 3/7 of the time or so. this seems kinda gross as id imagine that if this guy is cbetting so often hes going to get it in mid-pair/gutterball type light in the attempt to compensate for his mistake at least partially (tho he of course wont think of it like this).
So call his 3bets with hands like 54s-AKs, KQo+, 68s-T8s and various suited broadway combos. you are going to flop big enough to get the last 1.5 PSB after his auto-cbet way more than often enough to be profitable. playing against his ranges with 44 is just letting his unsound strategy exploit you a large % of the time under the guise of "playing back".
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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The problem with pocket pairs is the great disparity in equity versus made hands they have when they hit versus when they don't hit.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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btw I don't think 4-betting is awesome or anything but to me it seems better than calling pre and then folding a 778 draw-heavy flop
1 thing to think about is that as long as he's not a monkey, your 4-bet will look uber strong (i.e. ooh villain has a big hand he wants to get all in with I raaaze!)
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
The problem with pocket pairs is the great disparity in equity versus made hands they have when they hit versus when they don't hit.
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i just got owned
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
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someone explain how we dont have set odds
we definitely do and i know from the million hands ive played that its +EV to call preflop
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Thanks guys. We should also consider that calling the 3-bet and playing back makes villain less inclined to 3-bet us light, which lets us steal more blinds in the future.
Villain obviously doesn't want to sweeten the pot when oop with marginal holdings.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Maybe if i wasn't on winter break i'd do the math.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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gabe isn t the whole not-having-set-odds a function of him having an overpair such a small % of the time?
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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gabe
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Moderator
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if he never has an overpair thats even better
i mighthave worded it wrong earlier but i always call here
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
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What is your turn plan by calling gabe? (i.e. on an A, K, Q, J, 8, diamond, 2?
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Starting with the range JJ+ as a threebet, I think we barely want to fold. Add in AK and we still want to fold, and actually a little more than before. Add AQ and we still want to fold a little more than before. Add 89s and we still want to fold a little more than before... Until some point where adding another hand in opps range will make us want to call more.
Just wanted to make that point.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Starting with the range JJ+ as a threebet, I think we barely want to fold. Add in AK and we still want to fold, and actually a little more than before. Add AQ and we still want to fold a little more than before. Add 89s and we still want to fold a little more than before... Until some point where adding another hand in opps range will make us want to call more.
Just wanted to make that point.
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Why is adding AK/AQ hands into his range making us want to FOLD more? I mean, I agree its giving us less 'set odds to stack an overpair', but its also giving our made hand more value?
Gabe - do you call 44 to a 3-bet if you're OOP? or are you mostly calling here due to your hand + position?
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
Why is adding AK/AQ hands into his range making us want to FOLD more? I mean, I agree its giving us less 'set odds to stack an overpair', but its also giving our made hand more value?
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That is exactly ISF's point. Adding hands gives us more made hand value, but takes away set value. That's why when you add enough hands calling will become profitable again. The range needs to be large enough so that you can take advantage of your made hand value (not folding to his cbet when you don't hit your set).
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gabe
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by minSim
What is your turn plan by calling gabe? (i.e. on an A, K, Q, J, 8, diamond, 2?
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i said i think folding > raising> calling
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gabe
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
Gabe - do you call 44 to a 3-bet if you're OOP? or are you mostly calling here due to your hand + position?
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probably yes, but ofc depends on some things
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
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I'm sorry i didn't mean adding hands makes us want to fold more, I meant adding hands just makes us worse off to a certain point. Thanks p4's for helping clarify.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I'm sorry i didn't mean adding hands makes us want to fold more, I meant adding hands just makes us worse off to a certain point. Thanks p4's for helping clarify.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
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if gabe can play perfectly almost always calling with 44 is ok
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
if gabe can play perfectly almost always calling with 44 is ok
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This is what I was thinking. That you have to play flawless postflop to be calling with 44 here, especially out of position.
If I started calling with 44 OOP.. I'd be check/bombing all sorts of rag flops, and undoubtedly get myself stacked nice and good.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
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+1
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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