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pocketfours
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10-30-2010, 04:48 PM
Post subject: 5/10: cold 4bet with blockers
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Villain is unknown, I joined the table one orbit back, no reads. I guess my line looks a little fos here but we can't just give up either? Easy flop cbet?
CO: $1,074.50
BTN: $3,259.30
Hero (SB): $1,055.50
BB: $2,400.00
UTG: $1,641.25
Hero posts SB $5.00, BB posts BB $10.00
Pre Flop: ($15.00) Hero has K J
fold, CO raises to $30.00, BTN raises to $75.00, Hero raises to $175.00, fold, fold, BTN calls $100.00
Flop: ($390.00, 2 players) Q 5 9
Hero checks, BTN checks
Turn: ($390.00, 2 players) 3
Hero bets $180.00, BTN calls $180.00
River: ($750.00, 2 players) A
Hero bets $700.50 and is all-in
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Looks great yet again.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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i like it if you are c/shipping flop
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Ben I was checkfolding the flop because I generally expect villain not to steal this pot before the turn. I also don't expect him to bet top pair here against a cold 4bettor.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Ben I was checkfolding the flop because I generally expect villain not to steal this pot before the turn. I also don't expect him to bet top pair here against a cold 4bettor.
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whaaaaaaat?
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Rich I made two assumptions, do you disagree with both of them?
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Ben I was checkfolding the flop because I generally expect villain not to steal this pot before the turn. I also don't expect him to bet top pair here against a cold 4bettor.
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so bet the flop
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
so bet the flop
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I suppose it depends on villain, but I feel like villains range is often hands like TT-QQ.
I'd imagine most of his range is calling flop. Are you shoving turn?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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If flop is checked through then we can drop AA/QQ and discount KK from his range, but if my reads are correct then he still has all his air in his range. By checkfolding flop and betting turn and river we would therefore seem to have more fold equity.
Is there some flaw in this logic or a flaw in my reads like Rich seems to suggest? If he doesn't fold TT/JJ to turn+river bets but would fold it to flop+turn bets, then I guess betting flop is better.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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I think your equity on this flop is extremely low vs an unknown 4b flat range. I would check the flop and probably not put another $ into the pot.
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 1,242
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Yeah I feel like strongest line to take is just bet flop/ship turn....I don't think this is that great a spot to c/shove for value because they're checking back so much trying to get to showdown and/or tarping. Bet turn/ship river is also pretty strong - but people might be suspicious of the flop check thinking you're now uber polarized since you wouldn't want to give a free card with KK/AA.
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Family Cruise IMO
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Maybe its just me, and maybe I'm wrong in this thinking.
But I'm super paranoid in spots like this, or vdeep 3bet pots, on Q high boards.
Feel like Q high boards are one of the worst to continue on from my experience.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
Maybe its just me, and maybe I'm wrong in this thinking.
But I'm super paranoid in spots like this, or vdeep 3bet pots, on Q high boards.
Feel like Q high boards are one of the worst to continue on from my experience.
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motherfuckers always got dat Queen
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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well, kqs is the single most likely hand to flat a 4b.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
well, kqs is the single most likely hand to flat a 4b.
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depending on stacks, I've seen a fair bit of AQ, and even QQ too
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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ATOTHEC101
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Full House
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,248
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I wouldn't do this vs an unknown, I'd at least like some idea of his btn 3 betting frequencies. Once called I'd just c/f this particular flop.
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"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATOTHEC101
I wouldn't do this vs an unknown, I'd at least like some idea of his btn 3 betting frequencies. Once called I'd just c/f this particular flop.
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I did c/(f) the flop. Not firing turn/river?
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ATOTHEC101
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Full House
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,248
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Probably not as your line looks a bit fos and once he checks flop I feel he has decent sd value nearly every time so he's folding the turn close to never, once you bet turn and get this nutted river I'd definitely jam but I think turn is -ev.
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"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Yeah, I don't disagree. Besides as alexos said they always got dat queen. You guys should have told me before 
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PokerWiz
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 52
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Wow that is really scary with that kind of money. I personally would've folded. But I'm a nit so there's that. So did he call?
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The Edlets
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 84
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seems like he would bet the flop if he had a monster as its likely you will c/shove here after he flat calls 4bet? He will only bet if he wants to call your (probable?)shove??!!
Personally, I prefer the bet turn shove river to the bet flop shove turn move as we get a lot of info on the flop if he checks back. If he bets the flop I think you should fold.
Played the hand perfectly.
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wakeup
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Oz
Posts: 117
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i think cold 4betting without a particular reason to is why we're lost on the flop
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aka_red
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: house
Posts: 903
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we're lost on the flop because we didn't plan on getting called. the reason we 4bet pre is because we thought he'd fold enough.
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wakeup
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Oz
Posts: 117
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yeah i guess but without any read on their 3betting frequencies, i wasnt sure a unknown would fold enough
risking 175 to win pot of 280 so it needs to work 62.5%
actually is probably fine
so we assume his continuing range is pretty strong. i probably bet 1/3 pot on the flop since he'll fold some combos of AK TT JJ suitedstuff and we have decent equity vs flop calling range for a good price.
our range looks nutted since we're an unknown and we;re betting a pretty scary board
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