5/10: cold 4bet with blockers

**pocketfours** · 10-30-2010 04:48 PM

Villain is unknown, I joined the table one orbit back, no reads. I guess my line looks a little fos here but we can't just give up either? Easy flop cbet?

CO: $1,074.50
BTN: $3,259.30
Hero (SB): $1,055.50
BB: $2,400.00
UTG: $1,641.25

Hero posts SB $5.00, BB posts BB $10.00

Pre Flop: ($15.00) Hero has K

J

fold, CO raises to $30.00, BTN raises to $75.00, Hero raises to $175.00, fold, fold, BTN calls $100.00

Flop: ($390.00, 2 players) Q

5

9

Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($390.00, 2 players) 3

Hero bets $180.00, BTN calls $180.00

River: ($750.00, 2 players) A

Hero bets $700.50 and is all-in

**IowaSkinsFan** · 10-30-2010 06:43 PM

Looks great yet again.

**sauce123** · 10-30-2010 09:49 PM

i like it if you are c/shipping flop

**pocketfours** · 11-01-2010 05:47 AM

Ben I was checkfolding the flop because I generally expect villain not to steal this pot before the turn. I also don't expect him to bet top pair here against a cold 4bettor.

**nutsinho** · 11-01-2010 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by pocketfours

Ben I was checkfolding the flop because I generally expect villain not to steal this pot before the turn. I also don't expect him to bet top pair here against a cold 4bettor.

whaaaaaaat?

**pocketfours** · 11-02-2010 03:30 AM

Rich I made two assumptions, do you disagree with both of them?

**sauce123** · 11-03-2010 07:14 AM

Originally Posted by pocketfours

Ben I was checkfolding the flop because I generally expect villain not to steal this pot before the turn. I also don't expect him to bet top pair here against a cold 4bettor.

so bet the flop

**griffey24** · 11-03-2010 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by sauce123

so bet the flop

I suppose it depends on villain, but I feel like villains range is often hands like TT-QQ.

I'd imagine most of his range is calling flop. Are you shoving turn?

**pocketfours** · 11-03-2010 11:46 AM

If flop is checked through then we can drop AA/QQ and discount KK from his range, but if my reads are correct then he still has all his air in his range. By checkfolding flop and betting turn and river we would therefore seem to have more fold equity.

Is there some flaw in this logic or a flaw in my reads like Rich seems to suggest? If he doesn't fold TT/JJ to turn+river bets but would fold it to flop+turn bets, then I guess betting flop is better.

**Renton** · 11-06-2010 09:43 PM

I think your equity on this flop is extremely low vs an unknown 4b flat range. I would check the flop and probably not put another $ into the pot.

**Ravageur** · 11-11-2010 02:29 PM

Yeah I feel like strongest line to take is just bet flop/ship turn....I don't think this is that great a spot to c/shove for value because they're checking back so much trying to get to showdown and/or tarping. Bet turn/ship river is also pretty strong - but people might be suspicious of the flop check thinking you're now uber polarized since you wouldn't want to give a free card with KK/AA.

**griffey24** · 11-11-2010 02:39 PM

Maybe its just me, and maybe I'm wrong in this thinking.

But I'm super paranoid in spots like this, or vdeep 3bet pots, on Q high boards.

Feel like Q high boards are one of the worst to continue on from my experience.

**Alexos** · 11-11-2010 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by griffey24

Maybe its just me, and maybe I'm wrong in this thinking.

But I'm super paranoid in spots like this, or vdeep 3bet pots, on Q high boards.

Feel like Q high boards are one of the worst to continue on from my experience.

motherfuckers always got dat Queen

**Renton** · 11-11-2010 06:18 PM

well, kqs is the single most likely hand to flat a 4b.

**griffey24** · 11-11-2010 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by Renton

well, kqs is the single most likely hand to flat a 4b.

depending on stacks, I've seen a fair bit of AQ, and even QQ too

**ATOTHEC101** · 11-25-2010 07:27 AM

I wouldn't do this vs an unknown, I'd at least like some idea of his btn 3 betting frequencies. Once called I'd just c/f this particular flop.

**pocketfours** · 11-25-2010 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by ATOTHEC101

I wouldn't do this vs an unknown, I'd at least like some idea of his btn 3 betting frequencies. Once called I'd just c/f this particular flop.

I did c/(f) the flop. Not firing turn/river?

**ATOTHEC101** · 11-25-2010 03:44 PM

Probably not as your line looks a bit fos and once he checks flop I feel he has decent sd value nearly every time so he's folding the turn close to never, once you bet turn and get this nutted river I'd definitely jam but I think turn is -ev.

**pocketfours** · 11-26-2010 03:30 AM

Yeah, I don't disagree. Besides as alexos said they always got dat queen. You guys should have told me before

**PokerWiz** · 12-07-2010 01:27 PM

Wow that is really scary with that kind of money. I personally would've folded. But I'm a nit so there's that. So did he call?

**The Edlets** · 04-19-2011 02:22 PM

seems like he would bet the flop if he had a monster as its likely you will c/shove here after he flat calls 4bet? He will only bet if he wants to call your (probable?)shove??!!
Personally, I prefer the bet turn shove river to the bet flop shove turn move as we get a lot of info on the flop if he checks back. If he bets the flop I think you should fold.
Played the hand perfectly.

**wakeup** · 07-10-2011 06:07 PM

i think cold 4betting without a particular reason to is why we're lost on the flop

**aka_red** · 07-10-2011 10:20 PM

we're lost on the flop because we didn't plan on getting called. the reason we 4bet pre is because we thought he'd fold enough.

**wakeup** · 07-11-2011 03:11 PM

yeah i guess but without any read on their 3betting frequencies, i wasnt sure a unknown would fold enough

risking 175 to win pot of 280 so it needs to work 62.5%
actually is probably fine

so we assume his continuing range is pretty strong. i probably bet 1/3 pot on the flop since he'll fold some combos of AK TT JJ suitedstuff and we have decent equity vs flop calling range for a good price.

our range looks nutted since we're an unknown and we;re betting a pretty scary board

10-30-2010 04:48 PM #1
pocketfours View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Mar 2007 Posts 2,585 Location Lighting sweet moneys on fire.	5/10: cold 4bet with blockers Villain is unknown, I joined the table one orbit back, no reads. I guess my line looks a little fos here but we can't just give up either? Easy flop cbet? CO: $1,074.50 BTN: $3,259.30 Hero (SB): $1,055.50 BB: $2,400.00 UTG: $1,641.25 Hero posts SB $5.00, BB posts BB $10.00 Pre Flop: ($15.00) Hero has K J fold, CO raises to $30.00, BTN raises to $75.00, Hero raises to $175.00, fold, fold, BTN calls $100.00 Flop: ($390.00, 2 players) Q 5 9 Hero checks, BTN checks Turn: ($390.00, 2 players) 3 Hero bets $180.00, BTN calls $180.00 River: ($750.00, 2 players) A Hero bets $700.50 and is all-in

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10-30-2010 06:43 PM #2
IowaSkinsFan View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Oct 2004 Posts 8,898	Looks great yet again.
	Check out the new blog!!!
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10-30-2010 09:49 PM #3
sauce123 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Feb 2007 Posts 2,706 Location Dizzy	i like it if you are c/shipping flop
	I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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11-01-2010 05:47 AM #4
pocketfours View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Mar 2007 Posts 2,585 Location Lighting sweet moneys on fire.	Ben I was checkfolding the flop because I generally expect villain not to steal this pot before the turn. I also don't expect him to bet top pair here against a cold 4bettor.

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11-01-2010 07:07 PM #5
nutsinho View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 3,840 Location flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt	Originally Posted by pocketfours Ben I was checkfolding the flop because I generally expect villain not to steal this pot before the turn. I also don't expect him to bet top pair here against a cold 4bettor. whaaaaaaat?
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5/10: cold 4bet with blockers

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5/10: cold 4bet with blockers

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11-02-2010 03:30 AM #6
pocketfours View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Mar 2007 Posts 2,585 Location Lighting sweet moneys on fire.	Rich I made two assumptions, do you disagree with both of them?

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11-03-2010 07:14 AM #7
sauce123 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Feb 2007 Posts 2,706 Location Dizzy	Originally Posted by pocketfours Ben I was checkfolding the flop because I generally expect villain not to steal this pot before the turn. I also don't expect him to bet top pair here against a cold 4bettor. so bet the flop
	I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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11-03-2010 11:01 AM #8
griffey24 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Sep 2006 Posts 5,033 Location Toronto'ish	Originally Posted by sauce123 so bet the flop I suppose it depends on villain, but I feel like villains range is often hands like TT-QQ. I'd imagine most of his range is calling flop. Are you shoving turn?
	Originally Posted by Jay-Z I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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11-03-2010 11:46 AM #9
pocketfours View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Mar 2007 Posts 2,585 Location Lighting sweet moneys on fire.	If flop is checked through then we can drop AA/QQ and discount KK from his range, but if my reads are correct then he still has all his air in his range. By checkfolding flop and betting turn and river we would therefore seem to have more fold equity. Is there some flaw in this logic or a flaw in my reads like Rich seems to suggest? If he doesn't fold TT/JJ to turn+river bets but would fold it to flop+turn bets, then I guess betting flop is better.

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11-06-2010 09:43 PM #10
Renton View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jan 2006 Posts 7,485 Location Atlanta, GA, USA	I think your equity on this flop is extremely low vs an unknown 4b flat range. I would check the flop and probably not put another $ into the pot.

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11-11-2010 02:29 PM #11
Ravageur View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Official Montreal SwampRat Join Date Apr 2006 Posts 1,283 Location Montreal, Canada	Yeah I feel like strongest line to take is just bet flop/ship turn....I don't think this is that great a spot to c/shove for value because they're checking back so much trying to get to showdown and/or tarping. Bet turn/ship river is also pretty strong - but people might be suspicious of the flop check thinking you're now uber polarized since you wouldn't want to give a free card with KK/AA.
	Family Cruise IMO
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11-11-2010 02:39 PM #12
griffey24 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Sep 2006 Posts 5,033 Location Toronto'ish	Maybe its just me, and maybe I'm wrong in this thinking. But I'm super paranoid in spots like this, or vdeep 3bet pots, on Q high boards. Feel like Q high boards are one of the worst to continue on from my experience.
	Originally Posted by Jay-Z I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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11-11-2010 05:48 PM #13
Alexos View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Visit Homepage Join Date Aug 2006 Posts 3,196 Location Montreal	Originally Posted by griffey24 Maybe its just me, and maybe I'm wrong in this thinking. But I'm super paranoid in spots like this, or vdeep 3bet pots, on Q high boards. Feel like Q high boards are one of the worst to continue on from my experience. motherfuckers always got dat Queen
	Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot // Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
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11-11-2010 06:18 PM #14
Renton View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jan 2006 Posts 7,485 Location Atlanta, GA, USA	well, kqs is the single most likely hand to flat a 4b.

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11-11-2010 06:54 PM #15
griffey24 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Sep 2006 Posts 5,033 Location Toronto'ish	Originally Posted by Renton well, kqs is the single most likely hand to flat a 4b. depending on stacks, I've seen a fair bit of AQ, and even QQ too
	Originally Posted by Jay-Z I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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11-25-2010 07:27 AM #16
ATOTHEC101 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date May 2008 Posts 1,623	I wouldn't do this vs an unknown, I'd at least like some idea of his btn 3 betting frequencies. Once called I'd just c/f this particular flop.
	"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
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11-25-2010 12:30 PM #17
pocketfours View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Mar 2007 Posts 2,585 Location Lighting sweet moneys on fire.	Originally Posted by ATOTHEC101 I wouldn't do this vs an unknown, I'd at least like some idea of his btn 3 betting frequencies. Once called I'd just c/f this particular flop. I did c/(f) the flop. Not firing turn/river?

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11-25-2010 03:44 PM #18
ATOTHEC101 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date May 2008 Posts 1,623	Probably not as your line looks a bit fos and once he checks flop I feel he has decent sd value nearly every time so he's folding the turn close to never, once you bet turn and get this nutted river I'd definitely jam but I think turn is -ev.
	"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
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11-26-2010 03:30 AM #19
pocketfours View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Mar 2007 Posts 2,585 Location Lighting sweet moneys on fire.	Yeah, I don't disagree. Besides as alexos said they always got dat queen. You guys should have told me before

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12-07-2010 01:27 PM #20
PokerWiz View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Nov 2010 Posts 56	Wow that is really scary with that kind of money. I personally would've folded. But I'm a nit so there's that. So did he call?

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04-19-2011 02:22 PM #21
The Edlets View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Apr 2011 Posts 86	seems like he would bet the flop if he had a monster as its likely you will c/shove here after he flat calls 4bet? He will only bet if he wants to call your (probable?)shove??!! Personally, I prefer the bet turn shove river to the bet flop shove turn move as we get a lot of info on the flop if he checks back. If he bets the flop I think you should fold. Played the hand perfectly.

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07-10-2011 06:07 PM #22
wakeup View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Mar 2008 Posts 117 Location Oz	i think cold 4betting without a particular reason to is why we're lost on the flop

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07-10-2011 10:20 PM #23
aka_red View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Nov 2004 Posts 1,388 Location house	we're lost on the flop because we didn't plan on getting called. the reason we 4bet pre is because we thought he'd fold enough.

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07-11-2011 03:11 PM #24
wakeup View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Mar 2008 Posts 117 Location Oz	yeah i guess but without any read on their 3betting frequencies, i wasnt sure a unknown would fold enough risking 175 to win pot of 280 so it needs to work 62.5% actually is probably fine so we assume his continuing range is pretty strong. i probably bet 1/3 pot on the flop since he'll fold some combos of AK TT JJ suitedstuff and we have decent equity vs flop calling range for a good price. our range looks nutted since we're an unknown and we;re betting a pretty scary board

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