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pocketfours
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08-12-2008, 02:45 PM
Post subject: 5/10: Aces vs UTG TAG open
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
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UTG is 21/16/3.8 aggro TAG, button is a loose fish, blinds are competent TAG regulars. I have been 3-beting a lot, but giving UTG openers respect.
UTG ($2147)
MP ($200)
Hero ($1269)
Button ($2196)
SB ($2319)
BB ($1000)
Preflop: Hero is CO with A , A .
UTG raises to $35, 1 fold, Hero calls $35...
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Have you been 3-betting this particular opponent a lot?
If you have been 3-betting him a lot, then I'd continue to do so here. I think this is one of those spots where ppl take a stand against compulsive 3-bettors, because they feel like if they 4-bet from UTG it will get more respect.
I definitely 3-bet this if I have been doing so repeatedly to him already.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
Have you been 3-betting this particular opponent a lot?
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Of course not.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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I don't really like inviting the pot to go 3, 4 or 5-way since the loose button is calling a lot, but you play well post-flop so whatever.
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
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Because there's a fish on the BTN this may be even an easier 3bet, just because fish love cold calling 3bets with a wide range.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Alexos
Because there's a fish on the BTN this may be even an easier 3bet, just because fish love cold calling 3bets with a wide range.
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He wasn't that bad for sure, but probably bad enough to stack off with top pair.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Alexos
Because there's a fish on the BTN this may be even an easier 3bet, just because fish love cold calling 3bets with a wide range.
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This would make me want to reraise even less to make sure the fish will call behind us, unless we have a read he will cold call a reraise obv. Plus, we could get 3 streets of value from Tag with this line too.
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
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Location: Montreal
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Alexos
Because there's a fish on the BTN this may be even an easier 3bet, just because fish love cold calling 3bets with a wide range.
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This would make me want to reraise even less to make sure the fish will call behind us, unless we have a read he will cold call a reraise obv. Plus, we could get 3 streets of value from Tag with this line too. |
But fish just love to call, he's on button too, if he's got anything sooted there he WILL CALL!!! hell, even regs call in that spot.
It's like saying you wanna flat call a fish's raise with AA because you don't want to scare him out of the pot.
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
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elipsesjeff
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Alexos
Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Alexos
Because there's a fish on the BTN this may be even an easier 3bet, just because fish love cold calling 3bets with a wide range.
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This would make me want to reraise even less to make sure the fish will call behind us, unless we have a read he will cold call a reraise obv. Plus, we could get 3 streets of value from Tag with this line too. |
But fish just love to call, he's on button too, if he's got anything sooted there he WILL CALL!!! hell, even regs call in that spot.
It's like saying you wanna flat call a fish's raise with AA because you don't want to scare him out of the pot. |
No, I just don't want to raise the fish out of the pot if he has acted yet. I see it all the time when nits reraise me when I'm trying to isolate fish, there's no value in it and I know they're not capable of bluffing me.
IMO, people don't flat enough to make sure they play pots against donks.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
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It's a lot better if you swap the fish for another TAG. That doesn't mean that this is necessarily bad because you can play goot postflop but it's a lot closer.
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Alexos
Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Alexos
Because there's a fish on the BTN this may be even an easier 3bet, just because fish love cold calling 3bets with a wide range.
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This would make me want to reraise even less to make sure the fish will call behind us, unless we have a read he will cold call a reraise obv. Plus, we could get 3 streets of value from Tag with this line too. |
But fish just love to call, he's on button too, if he's got anything sooted there he WILL CALL!!! hell, even regs call in that spot.
It's like saying you wanna flat call a fish's raise with AA because you don't want to scare him out of the pot. |
No, I just don't want to raise the fish out of the pot if he has acted yet. I see it all the time when nits reraise me when I'm trying to isolate fish, there's no value in it and I know they're not capable of bluffing me.
IMO, people don't flat enough to make sure they play pots against donks. |
I understand what you're saying, but your situation applies more when we have a marginal hand in the SB lets say, and a fish is in the BB. For example we have mid PP or suited broadways or wtv, and we reraise in SB instead of letting the fish come along in the BB.
Here we have aces, the fish might come along as well, but it depends how bad he is i guess.
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sauce123
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p4s- given this and your last post you should do two things
a) post it in the SH forum
b) rephrase it as a theory post
cause in a vacuum theres just clearly no right answer besides 3bet
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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FeltOntheTable
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 27
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This is pretty sweet when the fish calls and the SB squeezes...
Another Squeeze Trap?
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
p4s- given this and your last post you should do two things
a) post it in the SH forum
b) rephrase it as a theory post
cause in a vacuum theres just clearly no right answer besides 3bet
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I'm not looking for any answers. I'm hoping to induce a good theory discussion, that is the sole reason to why I post, always.
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Fnord
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I 3-bet here because everyone seems to auto-felt AK/JJ+ against me. Even 150ish bb deep.
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gabe
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I 3-bet here because everyone seems to auto-felt AQ/88+ against me. Even 150ish bb deep.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
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Location: Arlington, VA
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I 3-bet here because everyone seems to auto-felt AK/JJ+ against me. Even 150ish bb deep.
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I'd think this particular opponent isn't dumb enough to do that when his UTG raise gets 3-bet.
It's interesting how you should be able to expect to get more action when you have the nuts and, other things equal, your opponents range is stronger. But when he knows that you know this, he becomes less willing to give you action.
Similarly, when you 3-bet his position raise with A-A, he's less likely to have a strong hand, but he's less willing to give you credit and more willing to call or raise light. So, assuming he's an intelligent player, his position almost ends up having no affect on your decision to 3-bet, as you'd think it might.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
I'd think this particular opponent isn't dumb enough to do that when his UTG raise gets 3-bet.
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You'd be surprised. My observation from taking shorts at some bigger online games the aggression/mistrust increases as more people are 3-betting with ranges other than JJ+/AKish. Hence people are felting QQ/AK here and if you show them a better hand they consider it a cooler. The more paranoid sorts stack off lighter. The more aggressive sorts will play back even lighter.
Also, pre-flop stats don't tell you how light he'll stack off.
We have an image of 3-betting a good range so we 3-bet here in hopes that he has something he wants to felt for one reason or another.
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Toadstool
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 442
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What he thinks of you here is huge, from what I've gathered from P4's posts you seem to be really solid and if that'e the case he probably knows that seeing as he is a reg as well.
If you've been 3 betting light and pick up a hand you can REALLY throw almost all mid stakes regs off by playing it completely differently to how they would expect you to play it - I know this sounds obvious but this is a perfect spot to do it. A reg here would think that you would almost never smooth call with AA in the situation if you have been 3 betting light as they would expect you to take advantage of what they think of you "Ok, he smooth called, obviously low PP or some suited connecter type hand - if he had some monster hand he would 3 bet me because he thinks I won't give him any credit"
Also a thing that makes it better to smooth in this situation is the fact he is UTG - He knows you know his range is smaller there so you would expect to be able to get value from more of his range if you did have a big hand hence you 3bet a big pair here (in his mind)
You're obviously good post flop so that is another thumbs up here - and another bonus is that if you do show down AA in this situation then it is really good for metagame.
That being said I'm not advocating that calling is better than raising here but I'm just saying the merits to calling and that it you should at least be mixing it into your game a good % of the time.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Toadstool
What he thinks of you here is huge, from what I've gathered from P4's posts you seem to be really solid and if that'e the case he probably knows that seeing as he is a reg as well.
If you've been 3 betting light and pick up a hand you can REALLY throw almost all mid stakes regs off by playing it completely differently to how they would expect you to play it - I know this sounds obvious but this is a perfect spot to do it. A reg here would think that you would almost never smooth call with AA in the situation if you have been 3 betting light as they would expect you to take advantage of what they think of you "Ok, he smooth called, obviously low PP or some suited connecter type hand - if he had some monster hand he would 3 bet me because he thinks I won't give him any credit"
Also a thing that makes it better to smooth in this situation is the fact he is UTG - He knows you know his range is smaller there so you would expect to be able to get value from more of his range if you did have a big hand hence you 3bet a big pair here (in his mind)
You're obviously good post flop so that is another thumbs up here - and another bonus is that if you do show down AA in this situation then it is really good for metagame.
That being said I'm not advocating that calling is better than raising here but I'm just saying the merits to calling and that it you should at least be mixing it into your game a good % of the time.
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Finally someone gets the point of this thread. METAGAME!
WP Toads
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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I dont think Toadstool is really talking about metagame. And it's clear why calling here is fine (the better option here I think, because P4's seems in the tone that gameflow dictated his opponent would not think p4's would threebet light here).
It strengthens our cold calling range on a lot of flop boards. AQx, KQx, QJx, KJx, AKx, etc. Boards where our range is so weak that no flop raise would get any credit. Like Toad said, you may be able to get more value from his range cold calling than raising. Its an obvious postflop concept but should be applied to preflop as well.
My 2 cents.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Toadstool was the first to mention metagame, which I think is absolutely key here.
I don't care too much about this particular situation. Mostly I just wanted to discuss the idea of flatting aces IP pre. I never even considered it an option until I saw Raptor do it in a CR vid. I still think it's mostly a metagame play and almost never optimal, especially when playing a loose style.
I do think mixing it up is good, but the lighter you 3-bet IP, the less frequently this should be done. Taking gameflow into account is pretty key of course.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
Mostly I just wanted to discuss the idea of flatting aces IP pre. I never even considered it an option until I saw Raptor do it in a CR vid. I still think it's mostly a metagame play and almost never optimal, especially when playing a loose style.
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I agree that the choice between raising aces or calling here is highly flow dependent.
I flat KK/AA pre a fair amount (not THAT often, but certainly more often than most who just auto 3-bet). My big deciding is if I've been 3-betting this player often (in which cause I'll 3-bet them), if I've been raising a ton of their cont bets (in which case, I may lean towards flatting pre and raising all flops), or if they just fold to a ridiculously high % of 3-bets (in which case I'd also lean towards flatting pre).
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