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zook
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09-11-2007, 07:52 PM
Post subject: 5/10 - A5s multi-way line check
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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UTG is a 23/16/2.1 reg. I've seen him around but we don't have any history. SB is an unknown shortstack, just joined the table. BB is another regular, 19/15/3.3, again no history.
Nonstandard line for me. Thoughts on flop and turn?
Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Holdem Ring game - Blinds: $5/$10 - 6 players - Converter
Stack sizes:
UTG: $1000
UTG+1: $265.50
Hero: $1272.75
Button: $1530
SB: $384
BB: $1163
Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with A  5
UTG raises to $35, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls.
Flop: 8 4  4 ($140, 4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.
Turn: A  ($140, 4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets $90, Hero calls, 2 folds.
River: 9 ($320, 2 players)
UTG bets $210, Hero raises all-in $1147.75
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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turn/river- thumbs up!
preflop- thumbs down
flop- thumbs medium
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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The only reason to make this call pre is for metagame reasons that aren't even that necessary.
Everything else is good. I just hate getting blown off my draw on the flop.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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preflop is absolutely fine.
i dont like river. even though you are way ahead of his river betting range, you are way behind is shove-calling range. if he has a low flush he folds it in a second, although he might not fold KQh.
i actually like a turn raise sometimes because they fold some better aces and it can set up a free showdown.
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crazycrazy
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 240
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i think the turn call is fine b ecause he dont really beat any ace and he still may cal the river bet if he misses his flush and get value from pp's which villain bet scare ace with on turn.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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I think I would b/f the flop here quite often. UTG probably doesn't have an overpair and SB+BB got very good odds to call pre with a wide range, so I think you have pretty decent fold equity and you are in good shape against most of their calling range. If you get called on the flop you will almost always get a free river because you have position.
Anyone think b/f flop is a mistake?
River seems thin against reg. 88/99/A8/A9 or a bluff is big part of his range and pushing against those hands is clearly -ev. Lower flushes won't call often enough to compensate. Probably close to zero ev.
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
preflop- thumbs down
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
The only reason to make this call pre is for metagame reasons that aren't even that necessary.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
preflop is absolutely fine.
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This is at least interesting to me.
Could you guys go into a bit more detail about it?
For example how the following things influence our decision:
- UTG's stats
- The fact that he's UTG (what if he was MP? CO? are we 3-betting somewhere?)
- Stacks
- Hero's position (does being on BTN instead of CO change anything? What about being in CO/BTN versus being in blinds)
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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gabe is just a fish
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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For a decent player post-flop I don't think this pre-flop decision is much of an issue. But whether I'm a decent post-flop player is an arguable point.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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How is preflop okay gabe? We get squeezed out a fair amount, A5s is not a good hand against UTG raising range. We can get sandwiched from the BU. I just highly doubt this is a +EV call, and even if it's only slightly -EV I don't think metagame really makes up for it.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
For a decent player post-flop I don't think this pre-flop decision is much of an issue. But whether I'm a decent post-flop player is an arguable point.
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yea, thats why im surprised people want to discuss it because turn and river are alot more interesting
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
For a decent player post-flop I don't think this pre-flop decision is much of an issue. But whether I'm a decent post-flop player is an arguable point.
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yea, thats why im surprised people want to discuss it because turn and river are alot more interesting |
Okay fine u got me there.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
i dont like river. even though you are way ahead of his river betting range, you are way behind is shove-calling range. if he has a low flush he folds it in a second, although he might not fold KQh.
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These spots just annoy me because I'd like to use the argument "well why don't we just shove air more?" But obviously we can't because we never show up with air in this spot. I'm interested if maybe we should be calling the turn with 76,65, and 75 because of this issue.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Back to an interesting street...
Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
i actually like a turn raise sometimes because they fold some better aces and it can set up a free showdown.
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Say I make a small turn raise to $300. If he pushes it's $575 to call to win $1405, making it a mandatory call even though I'm always behind if he pushes. I guess the question is how he plays AT+ to a turn raise. It definitely puts him in a tough spot. But it also folds weaker flush draws (which admittedly make up a small part of his range as played).
I don't think I like a turn raise here.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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the preflop thing- in all my research on the game/ advice ive been given etc etc this call is slightly -ev against a decent EP raiser.
can gabe play it profitably? Idk, probably, maybe, who cares?
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
Back to an interesting street...
Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
i actually like a turn raise sometimes because they fold some better aces and it can set up a free showdown.
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Say I make a small turn raise to $300. If he pushes it's $575 to call to win $1405, making it a mandatory call even though I'm always behind if he pushes. I guess the question is how he plays AT+ to a turn raise. It definitely puts him in a tough spot. But it also folds weaker flush draws (which admittedly make up a small part of his range as played).
I don't think I like a turn raise here. |
good players at 5/10 push with a hand that can't beat 4x here about .0001% of the time. i think raise to 260ish and fold to a push is good.
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