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pocketfours
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09-29-2007, 11:49 PM
Post subject: 5/10 250BB deep HU bluff
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
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Villain is very solid HU regular. Aggro game as usual, but not overly so. My image is solid. What do you think?
Ongame Texas Hold'em $10-$20 NL (real money)
Seat 3: BB ($2504.00 in chips)
Seat 8: HERO [ 6D,7C ] ($2696.00 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
HERO posts blind ($5), BB posts blind ($10).
PRE-FLOP
HERO bets $25, BB calls $20.
FLOP [board cards JH,5S,5H ]
BB checks, HERO bets $90, BB calls $90.
TURN [board cards JH,5S,5H,JS ]
BB checks, HERO bets $150, BB bets $300, HERO bets $750, BB calls $600.
RIVER [board cards JH,5S,5H,JS,10D ]
BB checks, HERO bets $1000...
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Action on turn is screwed up?
It's hard to imagine he's calling your turn 3bet with the intention of folding the river...
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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I give up river.
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UG
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,855
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I give up river.
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I don't play these games, but I can't see somebody calling a 3-bet on the turn actually folding on the river very often.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
Action on turn is screwed up?
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Turn action is correct. Ongame HH:s are a bit strange. I bet 150, V minraises to 300, I reraise to 900 (750 more than I have put in), V calls 600 more.
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Originally Posted by zook
It's hard to imagine he's calling your turn 3bet with the intention of folding the river...
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Not necessarily. He knows that I know that he will almost always at least c/c river and that he seems to have a full house, so my bet will look VERY strong. Would you call this river with fives full? I wouldn't.
I was just convinced that he dosn't have a jack here and I don't think he can call river without one (unless he has 55 of course).
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Besides, we also need to consider metagame.
If I raise his check-raise on the turn I'm telling him that I have AT LEAST jacks full, and I'm never checking behind with that on this river.
If I decide to represent a hand, I'm going all the way. The next time he thinks I'm bluffing on the turn he will fold his hand because he knows that he won't get a free showdown.
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crazycrazy
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 240
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so how many fives he had ?
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AHiltz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Coldbrook, NS
Posts: 1,589
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Why the overbet on the flop?
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by crazycrazy
so how many fives he had ?
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Probably not more than one because he folded.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AHiltz
Why the overbet on the flop?
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It was the standard cbet size at that point in the game (as strange as that may sound).
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Do you think he plays a Jack any differently?
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Do you think he plays a Jack any differently?
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I definitely think he raises the flop with a Jack. He was raising my cbets all the time so I'm sure he is going to do it with top pair pretty much every time.
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crazycrazy
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 240
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
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Originally Posted by crazycrazy
so how many fives he had ?
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Probably not more than one because he folded. |
i wonder, do u ever show these bluffs then do it again with air and then take his stack 3rd time when u have it or u try to protect ur image ?
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by crazycrazy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
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Originally Posted by crazycrazy
so how many fives he had ?
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Probably not more than one because he folded. |
i wonder, do u ever show these bluffs then do it again with air and then take his stack 3rd time when u have it or u try to protect ur image ? |
I sometimes show against very inexperienced players who call too much anyway. Against a solid opponent virtually never.
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crazycrazy
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 240
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
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Originally Posted by crazycrazy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
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Originally Posted by crazycrazy
so how many fives he had ?
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Probably not more than one because he folded. |
i wonder, do u ever show these bluffs then do it again with air and then take his stack 3rd time when u have it or u try to protect ur image ? |
I sometimes show against very inexperienced players who call too much anyway. Against a solid opponent virtually never. |
i see.
i'm thining if there is reason to show big bluffs to good players.
thing is: we both know there are big bluffs going around and sometimes they go to showdown, still it hurts ur image..or more importantly give away these moves which are profitably good and probably lowers our future folding equity in similiar situations where we would rather pull off another bluff than try to have a hand.
2. showing to weaker players/players who likes to play back may be +ev (yet it still gives away the move to other players at the table) cos they can set them off of their perfect game / on tilt and if we catch a hand shortly they can make big mistakes..something like playing rushes if u know what i mean.
so,probably better to keep big bluffs hidden as possible and show smaller ones where it may bring further goods. obv its good if bluff goas bad and a guy start calling u down for the rest of the session.it ususaly costs them at least 1 buy out if it works (i can say from my experience)
comments ?
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by crazycrazy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
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Originally Posted by crazycrazy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
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Originally Posted by crazycrazy
so how many fives he had ?
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Probably not more than one because he folded. |
i wonder, do u ever show these bluffs then do it again with air and then take his stack 3rd time when u have it or u try to protect ur image ? |
I sometimes show against very inexperienced players who call too much anyway. Against a solid opponent virtually never. |
i see.
i'm thining if there is reason to show big bluffs to good players.
thing is: we both know there are big bluffs going around and sometimes they go to showdown, still it hurts ur image..or more importantly give away these moves which are profitably good and probably lowers our future folding equity in similiar situations where we would rather pull off another bluff than try to have a hand.
2. showing to weaker players/players who likes to play back may be +ev (yet it still gives away the move to other players at the table) cos they can set them off of their perfect game / on tilt and if we catch a hand shortly they can make big mistakes..something like playing rushes if u know what i mean.
so,probably better to keep big bluffs hidden as possible and show smaller ones where it may bring further goods. obv its good if bluff goas bad and a guy start calling u down for the rest of the session.it ususaly costs them at least 1 buy out if it works (i can say from my experience)
comments ? |
I think it's a matter of style and preference really. I would be even less inclined to show a bluff with more than two players at the table.
I tend to turn into a calling station after showing a bluff, and thats a very bad thing.
Very recently I bluffed a fairly good and very aggressive player in a 500NL live game: I raised his middle position limp to 35 (7xBB was standard) from the cutoff and he called, everyone else folded (my image was solid). Flop came A99, he checked, I bet 60 and he called. I thought he might have a nine and was playing it slow. Turn came another ace, he checked and I checked behind trying to look as weak as I could doing it. I tried to say check exactly like I'm giving up the pot. Then the turn came a 5, he checked and I bet 150. He instafolded his nines full and proudly showed everyone that he is folding a monster. He went pale in the face when I turned my 82 offsuit face up, and he had to leave the table for 15 minutes.
Then 30 minutes later the same player open raises to 35 from middle position and I called with A8o on the button, everyone else folded. Flop came 589 two spades. He bet 60 and I called. Turn was 2h, he bet 120 and I called. River was 6d, he went all in for 350 more and I called. He said ten high and threw his cards in the muck. He wasn't happy when I showed him my middle pair.
My point is that I don't like to play like a calling station, but I can't help it after I bluff someone. Sometimes it pays off, other times it doesn't, but it's just not good poker.
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Bmxicle
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 947
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no me gusta, i usually donk off there getting 3:1 with the 5 that i sometimes have, and always with the jack that i often have.
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crazycrazy
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 240
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
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k. one things for sure,t hese ABBA boards scare a lot of ppl and are great to pick up pots. also good for calling down river bluffs with A high if the 2 pair on board is high enough and lets say u missed ur fd or something and they try to pick it up.
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Jack Sawyer
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Old School
Posts: 2,535
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Kudos.
Villain didn't push on turn. Why? He put close to half his stack in, way past commitment point and yet he checks river first to act. Why again? I believe that I'd go all the way with this bluff too.
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My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...
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Hey, I'm in a movie!
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crazycrazy
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 240
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
Kudos.
Villain didn't push on turn. Why? He put close to half his stack in, way past commitment point and yet he checks river first to act. Why again? I believe that I'd go all the way with this bluff too.
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it probably wasnt easy decision for him too prolly had a small boat(canoe) and hard to say he was maybe trying to get little value from bigger pairs or FD ? maybe he had a read on hero. maybe he made error with his A high FD himself there. strange minraise. and the call dont make sense with fd its just too risky from good player. but if he had 5 boat, thing is it'll be hard for hero to value bet the river without J full and he prolly knew it. once the hero fired big bet on river he just gave up. maybe he just didnt like being outdrawn and bluffed about it. flopped trips is quite good hu.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
Kudos.
Villain didn't push on turn. Why? He put close to half his stack in, way past commitment point and yet he checks river first to act. Why again? I believe that I'd go all the way with this bluff too.
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Thanks.
Yes, the river check seems to be the final confirmation that he doesn't have a jack. There is no way he is check-raising here without 55/JJ, so we know he is either check/folding, check/calling or has quads. Check/calling with a J is a serious mistake (negative freeroll situation), and he is never check/folding a J either.
Seems pretty clear that if he is half decent he never has a J here.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Hmmmmm.
I actually am starting to understand some reasoning for this but involves a super read. The only reason I wouldn't call the turn with a J is if the HU match involved such light call down and out of control aggressions that felt like you'd put me on a bluff if I shoved. The problem with this logic however is if you already have a bluff I'm not getting any more value, so that reasoning is flawed, yet opp may use it.
If he calls he gives you a chance to bluff the river if you don't have a hand. But then again by calling he seems to be overrepping his hand as most players would think its a jack.
Although you think he'd put the rest in with a jack, I completely see the reasoning why he wouldn't and completely see the reasoning why he'd call a five. This bluff has to work probably 50% of the time, I just doubt a read can be that strong towards either reasoning.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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p4s- i dont think checking a jack to you on the river is a mistake at all or calling ur turn 3bet
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Hmmmmm.
I actually am starting to understand some reasoning for this but involves a super read. The only reason I wouldn't call the turn with a J is if the HU match involved such light call down and out of control aggressions that felt like you'd put me on a bluff if I shoved. The problem with this logic however is if you already have a bluff I'm not getting any more value, so that reasoning is flawed, yet opp may use it.
If he calls he gives you a chance to bluff the river if you don't have a hand. But then again by calling he seems to be overrepping his hand as most players would think its a jack.
Although you think he'd put the rest in with a jack, I completely see the reasoning why he wouldn't and completely see the reasoning why he'd call a five. This bluff has to work probably 50% of the time, I just doubt a read can be that strong towards either reasoning.
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I don't think he put much weight on the possibility that I was bluffing, certainly not enough weight to check/call the river with a J. If you get check raised on a two paired turn, you usually throw your hand away.
The river bluff only needs to work 33% of the time to be profitable and the good thing here is that I can credibly make this smaller bet instead of shoving because I'm trying to represent that I want a call from his fives full.
My bluffing frequency here is never high enough for him to be able to call profitably with less than jacks full.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
Kudos.
Villain didn't push on turn. Why? He put close to half his stack in, way past commitment point and yet he checks river first to act. Why again? I believe that I'd go all the way with this bluff too.
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Thanks.
Yes, the river check seems to be the final confirmation that he doesn't have a jack. There is no way he is check-raising here without 55/JJ, so we know he is either check/folding, check/calling or has quads. Check/calling with a J is a serious mistake (negative freeroll situation), and he is never check/folding a J either.
Seems pretty clear that if he is half decent he never has a J here. |
I don't really see how check/calling a J here is a serious mistake? This really depends on what villain puts you on. He probably figures you're always betting a J if checked to, and you're possibly bluffing if checked to, and so the only value being lost is that you'll check through a 5.
Based on the turn, I doubt you play a 5 this way. So how is checking a bad play?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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P4s- im instituting a rule where one of the next 6 hands you post has to not have worked lol...
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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oh yea and on a side note I think its very reasonable to check/call river with a jack here even if you are bluffing almost never.
the reasoning being that you *may* shove a five to get me off a perceived split and that its friggin hu vs a solid player- which means a bluff is in ur range almost all the time- but obviously a veeerry small part.
i think the combination of these two factors make checking and calling as good if not better than shoving turn.
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
P4s- im instituting a rule where one of the next 6 hands you post has to not have worked lol...
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HAHA, you are the boss sir. 
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
oh yea and on a side note I think its very reasonable to check/call river with a jack here even if you are bluffing almost never.
the reasoning being that you *may* shove a five to get me off a perceived split and that its friggin hu vs a solid player- which means a bluff is in ur range almost all the time- but obviously a veeerry small part.
i think the combination of these two factors make checking and calling as good if not better than shoving turn.
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Interesting thought. I guess I have to agree that check calling river is not that bad. I still expect most players to shove a J here.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Idk I'm a monkey but I play a J the same as this guy has played his hand so far, although I actually like shoving much more with a J.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Idk I'm a monkey but I play a J the same as this guy has played his hand so far, although I actually like shoving much more with a J.
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C/c top pair of Jacks on the flop against solid opp 1kNL, really?
You have over 70% equity against my range here. I don't see any reason not to raise or at least lead.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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What's with your bet size on the flop? 90 into a 50?
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donkbee
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WELP
Join Date: May 2005
Location: so close but so far
Posts: 3,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
What's with your bet size on the flop? 90 into a 50?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
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Originally Posted by AHiltz
Why the overbet on the flop?
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It was the standard cbet size at that point in the game (as strange as that may sound). |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.
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