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3-bet pots, min-raising cont bets

  
 
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griffey24
Old 04-10-2008, 04:04 PM     Post subject: 3-bet pots, min-raising cont bets #1 (permalink)  
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 So I've been noticing a trend lately. Maybe some other people have noticed this too.

100bb effective stacks. I 3-bet out of the blinds, and taggish player calls on button or CO preflop.

Flop comes Kxx or Axx and I lead 2/3-3/4pot and get minraised.

I've had this happen quite a few times already, and I'm not sure if I'm reinforcing it (since I am folding a high frequency) but its definitely hard to play back at this without shipping my stack in.

I have no idea what ranges people are doing this with, since I haven't had hands to get it in with yet.

I feel like I might just start shoving if I hit any piece on these boards (figure I have 20% equity if called), just to see how people react and what they showup with here.

Any comments, feedback on this kind of spot is welcome!

(I'm at work so I can't post hand examples, but I'll try to post some later)
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griffey24
Old 04-10-2008, 09:26 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 Alright, no comments so far so maybe my post was too vague. I'll try to post some hands.

Hand 1
-villain in hand 1 and 2 is a regular, and runs 24/20/4
-He's definitely pretty aggro, but lately he's toned it down against me cause I've been calling him down light when he's raised PF
-He had minraised me a few times already in this HU session

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $2/$5 pounds
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
SB: $520.40
Hero: $943.75

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is BB with
SB raises to $15, Hero raises to $50, SB calls.

Flop: ($100, 2 players)
Hero bets $50, SB raises to $100, Hero raises all-in $893.75


Hand 2
-same villain from hand 1
-I dont know why my 3-bet is so weakass in this hand, I usally bump it to like 65ish here

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $2/$5
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $673.45
CO: $221.74
Button: $555
Hero: $495
BB: $495

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with
UTG raises to $17, 2 folds, Hero raises to $52, BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop: ($109, 2 players)
Hero bets $64, UTG raises to $128, Hero calls <-- spew?

Turn: ($405, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks.

River: ($405, 2 players)
Hero ??


Hand 3
-table when 3 handed not long ago. He's 3-bet my button raises each time so far, and he 3-bet me last hand and now im' 3-betting him
-I view him as pretty aggro, and he barrels a lot. I've seen him do this minraise nonsense on K/A high boards before but I've never seen his hands. Once he did it on Qc4cJh board and he had AQ
-runs about 25/20/3.3

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $2/$5
3 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Button: $553.41
SB: $924.65
Hero: $491.99

Pre-flop: (3 players) Hero is BB with
Button raises to $20, SB folds, Hero raises to $67, Button calls.

Flop: ($136, 2 players)
Hero bets $90, Button raises to $180, Hero??
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pocketfours
Old 04-11-2008, 09:04 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 I like to minraise a cbet in 3-bet pots fairly often, mostly against weak players. Some villains make big mistakes when playing back.

Hand 1. CiB/call. Shove is ok too but you will run into slowplayed AA/KK here sometimes.

Hand 2. Flop call sure, you have huge equity against probable underpair. River looks like c/f since villain doesn't need to bluff his underpair but could have a weak king.

Hand 3. I think c/f all the way is slightly better than cbetting. Calling is pretty bad since you are oop, but pretty standard spot for a move.
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The Odds God
Old 04-11-2008, 10:49 AM #4 (permalink)  
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The minraise really tilts the hell out of me because I feel so stupid when I fold to it.

Hand 1: I like CiB/call, just to make fun of him by minreraising him back.

Hand 2: Calling flop is good. River sucks, I guess c/f. If opponent is very aggressive on future streets, then push or fold.

Hand 3: The question is whether to call or push. I prefer calling. The only cards that you are scared of coming on turn or river are K and J. I don't see much reason to push unless you think that villain will fold some aces if you push. For this, villain needs to be very bad. I call.

To P4's - you c/f this flop in hand 3?
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pocketfours
Old 04-11-2008, 11:46 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Odds God
To P4's - you c/f this flop in hand 3?
Usually yes, but I don't think a cbet is bad in any way either.
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griffey24
Old 04-11-2008, 03:12 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Odds God
Hand 3: The question is whether to call or push. I prefer calling. The only cards that you are scared of coming on turn or river are K and J. I don't see much reason to push unless you think that villain will fold some aces if you push. For this, villain needs to be very bad. I call.
If you call the flop min raise, are you stacking off on later streets if we check and he bombs?


Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Odds God
To P4's - you c/f this flop in hand 3?
Usually yes, but I don't think a cbet is bad in any way either.

I don't get this P4's, can you elaborate? I don't really see why this isn't the perfect flop for us to c-bet? Villain is pretty aggro and also calling 3-bets in position reasonably often.

I'm assuming if you're c/f this flop then you are also c/raising when you have AK/AQ etc, as opposed to leading.
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pocketfours
Old 04-11-2008, 04:00 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Usually yes, but I don't think a cbet is bad in any way either.

I don't get this P4's, can you elaborate? I don't really see why this isn't the perfect flop for us to c-bet? Villain is pretty aggro and also calling 3-bets in position reasonably often.
What is the purpose of a cbet here? Surely you can't expect better hands to fold to a single bet very often and you won't get value from worse either. You are OOP with a very marginal hand. Play a small pot.

I usually wouldn't c/r this flop either.
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griffey24
Old 04-11-2008, 04:12 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Usually yes, but I don't think a cbet is bad in any way either.

I don't get this P4's, can you elaborate? I don't really see why this isn't the perfect flop for us to c-bet? Villain is pretty aggro and also calling 3-bets in position reasonably often.
What is the purpose of a cbet here? Surely you can't expect better hands to fold to a single bet very often and you won't get value from worse either. You are OOP with a very marginal hand. Play a small pot.

I usually wouldn't c/r this flop either.
I'm not so much questioning the not cbetting, so much as the c/FOLDING as opposed to c/calling here. I can see why we wouldn't bet here and would instead want to c/c.
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Irisheyes
Old 04-11-2008, 04:41 PM #9 (permalink)  
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I do it in 2 spots

1) when I want to bluff a light 3bettor and I feel I can minraise/fold rather than just shoving the flop.

2) When my opponent is aggro and stacks are slightly deep I'll do it to try and induce shoves from worse hands.
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pocketfours
Old 04-11-2008, 06:07 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
I'm not so much questioning the not cbetting, so much as the c/FOLDING as opposed to c/calling here. I can see why we wouldn't bet here and would instead want to c/c.
OOP makes life too difficult. If we c/c we are saying that we have a weak hand and we do. There's two more times we have to show weakness before we can see a showdown. We can't call two bets with this hand. Obviously reads change everything, but for me c/f is the norm here. I would sometimes c/f flop and c/c turn though. If this was HU I would be more inclined to b/f or b/c.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 04-11-2008, 06:45 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1: First off, i don't threebet given information known.

cbet size is horrendous. Standard for me is to bet like 85 on that flop. Checking this flop seems like the best decision. I really don't like playing for stacks here, your just going to get it in with like 60% equity at best. As played I have no idea, CiB seemed to be the best option.

Hand 2: Fold flop. The guy called a raise UTG and your preflop threebet range is tight anyways. It seems silly to call a raise with pretty much the bottom of your range here too. As played, I'm tempted to shove the river! I actually would not be surprised to sometimes see someone talk themselves into a fold with a K.

Hand 3: The only reason I'd be this flop is if I was planning to stack off. Your hand is another great hand to check the flop with, why not do it?

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sauce123
Old 04-11-2008, 07:17 PM #12 (permalink)  
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griffey all these hands seem rly butchered in my opinion on basically every street
I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
 
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griffey24
Old 04-11-2008, 07:17 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 P4's - Hand 3: Ok I agree that c/c is kind of turning our weak hand face up. I guess I feel like we're ahead often on this flop. I agree we're not ahead that often if we bet AND he calls, but I think we're ahead often enough to bet and just take this pot down. Villain is aggro and will bet a high % of time if we check, so its hard to tell where we're at.

Hand 2: I actually didn't have QT, I had complete air, but I was just interested in what we should do here with midpair. Maybe this bet is better given that I had air, though I guess if we're c/f QT we should prob just c/f air too.

ISF - Hand 1 - yah the bet sizing is pretty bad, but I don't always make big cont bets in 3-bet pots. This kinda board though I prob shoulda bet bigger.

Hand 2: I actually DID shove the river, like ISF suggested might be a good idea. Quad 9's for the win.
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sauce123
Old 04-11-2008, 10:02 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
griffey all these hands seem rly butchered in my opinion on basically every street
ok now i will be constructive

hand 1: call preflop, call flop

hand 2: call preflop, fold flop, as played shove river

hand 3: call preflop, bet/check flop some but i would probably check more often than bet on Crypto from what ive heard about it, as played call flop


I generally agree with your thoughts at the beginning of the post with the one thing to add that board texture matters a ton in these spots as does your hand, so floating/shoving/folding with similar equity values vs their range change often. and dont forget ur image
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griffey24
Old 04-12-2008, 05:57 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
hand 3: call preflop, bet/check flop some but i would probably check more often than bet on Crypto from what ive heard about it, as played call flop


I generally agree with your thoughts at the beginning of the post with the one thing to add that board texture matters a ton in these spots as does your hand, so floating/shoving/folding with similar equity values vs their range change often. and dont forget ur image
What have you heard of crypto that would make you more inclined to check than bet there?

But yah, I do agree I butchered quite a few of those. Hence the post!
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sauce123
Old 04-12-2008, 02:20 PM #16 (permalink)  
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griffey- generally euro players bluff far more often and with fewer outs, and generally r worse at reading hands at the same stakes
I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
 
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pocketfours
Old 04-12-2008, 03:28 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
griffey- generally euro players bluff far more often and with fewer outs, and generally r worse at reading hands at the same stakes
equals softer games?
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griffey24
Old 04-12-2008, 06:02 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
griffey- generally euro players bluff far more often and with fewer outs, and generally r worse at reading hands at the same stakes
equals softer games?
Geez, better not be doing any site switches anytime soon!
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pocketfours
Old 04-13-2008, 05:34 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
griffey- generally euro players bluff far more often and with fewer outs, and generally r worse at reading hands at the same stakes
Funny coincidence that the same day you post this a Finnish player manages to shove in his 250BB deep stack against me drawing STONE DEAD. This was a five handed table that temporarily got down to heads up, villain was sitting in at least 6-7 other tables and seemed very solid.

I really hated my hand here because this looks soo much like 67. No way I could ever fold this though.

Are my pot sized bets screaming weakness, wtf?

Table Osaka, 12 Apr 2008 2:24 AM ET

Seat 8: SB ($485.45 in chips)
Seat 9: HERO [ 8H,8C ] ($544.85 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
SB posts blind ($1), HERO posts blind ($2).

PRE-FLOP
SB bets $5, HERO bets $21, SB calls $17.

FLOP [board cards JS,8D,5H ] (pot $46)
HERO bets $45, SB calls $45.

TURN [board cards JS,8D,5H,4C ] (pot $136)
HERO bets $135, SB bets $417.45 and is all-in, HERO calls $282.45.

RIVER [board cards JS,8D,5H,4C,QD ]

SHOWDOWN
SB shows [ 2H,JH ]
HERO shows [ 8H,8C ]
HERO wins $969.90
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 04-13-2008, 08:16 PM #20 (permalink)  
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 Why are you playing 1/2?
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pocketfours
Old 04-13-2008, 11:39 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Why are you playing 1/2?
Seems you missed my post 03 Feb in the January graphs thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours
I started working again two weeks ago and I don't intend to play high stakes while I'm employed.

I will keep playing lower stakes and tournaments for fun though and I will of course be writing posts when I'm bored at work.
I haven't played high stakes since January when I started working and cashed out my entire roll. This project I'm working on is stressful enough and I can't really handle any high stakes downswings at the same time.

I thought I would start out from scratch and deposited a fresh $500 to a site where I got a very nice rakeback deal. Started grinding at 50NL and now after 36k hands and around 90 hours of play I'm at 200NL with a roll of 8k. Taking stabs at 2/4 already
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Cocco_Bill
Old 04-21-2008, 07:31 PM #22 (permalink)  
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note to myself: start playing on crypto now

seriously

one network just isn't enough anymore and I've heard high stakes players raving about how soft the games can be there at times.
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Renton
Old 04-21-2008, 08:32 PM #23 (permalink)  
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 i've been minraising with tpwk and they always monkey it in with ace high
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