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3/6 - shutting down after 4betting JJ

  
 
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zook
Old 08-26-2007, 07:44 PM     Post subject: 3/6 - shutting down after 4betting JJ #1 (permalink)  
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Villain is 41/20/1.9 over 1.8k hands. Not great, but surprisingly not horrible. He minraises a lot pre-flop, usually folds to 3-bets and 3-bets himself a fair amount. Earlier in this session he c/mr'ed a Kxx two-tone flop after calling me from the BB and I folded crap. That's about it for reads. Line-check?

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Holdem Ring game - Blinds: $3/$6 - 6 players - Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $408.25
UTG+1: $591
Hero: $656
Button: $1005.25
SB: $570
BB: $528.10

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with J J
2 folds, Hero raises to $21, 2 folds, BB raises to $66, Hero raises to $183, BB calls.

Flop: K 8 6 ($369, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: 6 ($369, 2 players)
BB is all-in $366.1, Hero folds.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 08-27-2007, 12:07 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 Easy easy fold, and i like how you played it.
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pocketfours
Old 08-27-2007, 12:41 PM     Post subject: Re: 3/6 - shutting down after 4betting JJ #3 (permalink)  
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 The mistake here is the 4-bet preflop (it's a bluff!). Call instead (IP). Postflop JJ is a good hand for floating almost any flop and it also has good showdown value (but only in a 3-bet pot).

I like how you played postflop though, but it just showes that JJ isn't good enough for a 4-bet at least in a 90bb deep game. You usually can't defend it profitably postflop (obviously since it's a bluff).

When OoP, I prefer to semibluff preflop with AK rather than to bluff with JJ, since it is 3 times more likely to improve and beat a 4-bet (IP) calling range. But no reason to 4-bet either of those hands IP pre unless playing very deep.

Well that's how I play anyways...
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 08-27-2007, 04:25 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 4 betting JJ isn't bad IMO, it's not really a bluff because we do beat AK and we probably are something like 36% against his all in range. Although we are in position, so calling seems like a good option. I'd probably call here more than I shove, but I'll shove here versus some players.

Oh and about rather shoving AK than JJ. AK is 39% against a range of AK, QQ+. JJ is 36% against the same range, really not much of a difference.
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Toadstool
Old 08-27-2007, 10:12 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 I agree with pocketfours, I think 4 betting here is really bad. You have position, see a flop - is he really going to come along with anything you have dominited?
When people 4 bet JJ and opponant has worse they win maybe around 13BB. Yet I also see people call a shove with JJ after 4 betting - almost all players are folding 1010 so you are either 50/50 or dominated. Not a good situation to be in. When this happens, the majority of the time you lose 100BB. And even if they do fold, they lost all value form JJ by basically turning it into a bluff and losing 35BB or whatever their 4 bet size was.

Anyway as played good fold on the flop I really dont see anything you beat here.

Also another advantage is that you get to play some postflop poker where more money is made and its more fun
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pocketfours
Old 08-27-2007, 11:12 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 In any case we can all agree that JJ is a pretty difficult hand to play and it brings along a lot of marginal situations. One style of player will play it differently from the other style of player. Good discussion again though...

Lately I have started to play JJ very much like a small pair preflop and mostly I'm hoping to hit a set or get away fairly cheaply.

Although in HU pocket jacks are the nuts
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Pelion
Old 08-28-2007, 12:16 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Oh and about rather shoving AK than JJ. AK is 39% against a range of AK, QQ+. JJ is 36% against the same range, really not much of a difference.
Flop playability must factor aswell though. Although I suppose both hands are going to suck on an awful lot of flops.
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sauce123
Old 08-28-2007, 04:35 AM #8 (permalink)  
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i dont get y u do this when ur in position- specially vs a 41/whatever

just call or maaaaybe push pre but calling is way better.

if i thought my opponent was bad/loose enough that 4betting JJ in position was my most profitable line, it would be with the intention of shoving a flop like this for value 100% of the time.

basically ur preflop play and postflop play contradict each other.
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