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pocketfours
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05-06-2008, 03:13 AM
Post subject: 3/6: P4's flops a flushy
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
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Time to play some serious poker again! It's been 4 months since I last played these stakes, so help me get rid of the rust...
Button is 36/21/2, weak multitabler who plays a very unconventional style. SB is 48/21/1 fish. Easy call preflop getting 5:1 against two weak opponents. Who prefers a squeeze here?
Thoughts about the flop call/raise? It really felt like SB was very weak and would fold to a raise so I wanted the extra $15 from the button and was hoping that he would often raise the weak donkbet with the preflop lead. In a sense I'm still going for a c/r since the donkbet can hardly even classify as a bet and my call is certainly not intimidating either. Bet sizing, turn play?
Note that these are Ongame HH's and 'PlayerX bets $xxx' means PlayerX bets $xxx more.
Seat 1: CUTOFF ($586.00 in chips)
Seat 2: BUTTON ($1,812.80 in chips)
Seat 3: SB ($158.30 in chips)
Seat 8: HERO [ JD,8D ] ($671.20 in chips)
Seat 10: UTG ($801.80 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
SB posts blind ($3), HERO posts blind ($6).
PRE-FLOP
UTG folds, CUTOFF folds, BUTTON bets $15, SB calls $12, HERO calls $9.
FLOP [board cards 4D,10D,7D ] (pot $45)
SB bets $15, HERO calls $15, BUTTON bets $35, SB folds, HERO bets $125, BUTTON calls $105.
TURN [board cards 4D,10D,7D,AH ] (pot $340)
HERO bets $225, BUTTON bets $500, HERO bets $291.20 and is all-in, BUTTON calls $16.20.
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Fnord
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lol, on first read I thought you had pocket 4s and was about to say nice hand.
My biggest problem is that your flop line is pretty transparent. If the button doesn't suck at reading hands, he puts you on at least two pair every time. The obvious raise to isolate the fish might get the money in faster when the button really has a hand.
Button's range has lots of worse hands, so you're certainly getting it in here. I almost want to say something silly like the Button has :Ad: :As: here.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
My biggest problem is that your flop line is pretty transparent. If the button doesn't suck at reading hands, he puts you on at least two pair every time. The obvious raise to isolate the fish might get the money in faster when the button really has a hand.
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I think that raising the donk lead is pretty strong too. You're basically gonna get paid by the button the same amount either line, so you may as well call and let him raise in position with a wideish range to pick up the extra bet.
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Button's range has lots of worse hands, so you're certainly getting it in here. I almost want to say something silly like the Button has :Ad: :As: here.
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I was actually going to post the exact same thing just for the hell of it, it makes perfect sense
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Massimo
you may as well call and let him raise in position with a wideish range to pick up the extra bet.
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How light is the button raising here compared to his re-raise or cold-call range if we isolate?
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pocketfours
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I didn't mention that $15 was villains std open raise size. I think we always try to see a hand that we can beat in these situations, such as AdAx, which makes perfect sense, but so does AdKd, AdQd, Ad9d, Ad6d, Ad5d, Ad3d and Ad2d. I'm convinced that he isn't bad enough to call the flop with a worse flush than the one I had.
I think that faced with a pot sized raise on the turn it would have been a fairly standard fold, even though it could be AdAx (even that hand has 16 outs).
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
I didn't mention that $15 was villains std open raise size. I think we always try to see a hand that we can beat in these situations, such as AdAx, which makes perfect sense, but so does AdKd, AdQd, Ad9d, Ad6d, Ad5d, Ad3d and Ad2d. I'm convinced that he isn't bad enough to call the flop with a worse flush than the one I had.
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But he would probably call with some sort of set?
Though I'm not sure how often anyone would ever raise the turn with a set there. Probably not too often.
I mean, after you 3-bet the flop, you made up your mind that you're stacking on a non D turn. I don't think c/f is reasonable on turn, and you can't really b/f ... or can you? Would be pretty sick given the size of the pot.
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pocketfours
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Massimo
you may as well call and let him raise in position with a wideish range to pick up the extra bet.
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How light is the button raising here compared to his re-raise or cold-call range if we isolate? |
I could see myself raising 100% of my range on the button after a small donk by a fish and a quick call from the BB (very important to call quickly for this to work). Some mediocre hands with good equity like Ad7x/KdTx I might just call with though.
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Fnord
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44/77/TT are all in his range, right? Also, he could have a smaller flush.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
44/77/TT are all in his range, right? Also, he could have a smaller flush.
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Why does he call the flop but raise the turn?
I would never ever (EVER) call the flop reraise with a small flush (I know that some weak players do though, but I don't think this guy is that bad).
Calling the flop with a set seems just as marginal. Better to just get it in, and if we are against a flush, fine, just pair the board!
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Fnord
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You != Him
Quote:
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Button is 36/21/2, weak multitabler who plays a very unconventional style
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Certainly not with that description. Your thought process shouldn't be "what range of hands would I have in that spot?"
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
You != Him
Quote:
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Button is 36/21/2, weak multitabler who plays a very unconventional style
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Certainly not with that description. Your thought process shouldn't be "what range of hands would I have in that spot?" |
Quite true of course, but he wasn't a horrible fish either. Slowplaying a set or a small flush on a three flushed board is simply one of the biggest mistakes you can make in NLHE IMO. But actually when I think about it, slowplaying the nut flush is pretty bad too.
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Fnord
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How is it slow-playing? He raised the flop, you repped EXTREME strength playing back at him and he let you commit yourself on the turn instead of giving you the chance to second guess the bottom end of your non-bluff range (if you ever bluff with this flop line.)
His small Pre-flop raise sets this all up as it's plausible that the pot isn't big enough on the flop to just settle the matter right there.
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The Odds God
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 252
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Stats suggest that villain is bad. Sure if I am him, I would never just call anything on this flop and you probably get it in also. But some people suck. Just get it in here.
I like a flop call also. Raising looks stronger.
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The secret to success in poker is to rig the odds in your favor.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
How is it slow-playing? He raised the flop, you repped EXTREME strength playing back at him and he let you commit yourself on the turn instead of giving you the chance to second guess the bottom end of your non-bluff range (if you ever bluff with this flop line.)
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Ok I agree with this. The biggest problem is that every possible hand is really vulnerable here and you pretty much always want to charge the worse hand for drawing. This passive line is probably optimal against a spewy player, but I wouldn't usually choose it myself.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
But he would probably call with some sort of set?
Though I'm not sure how often anyone would ever raise the turn with a set there. Probably not too often.
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I also thought that most wouldn't call the flop with a set and raise on the turn, but it's actually a decent line if you are planning to stack off with your set on any river, then a raise here is best since villain is pretty much committed with the vast majority of his range.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
I mean, after you 3-bet the flop, you made up your mind that you're stacking on a non D turn. I don't think c/f is reasonable on turn, and you can't really b/f ... or can you? Would be pretty sick given the size of the pot.
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I don't think we can b/f given stack sizes, but if we were deep enough that villain could make a pot sized raise, then I think we should give serious consideration to folding.
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by The Odds God
I like a flop call also. Raising looks stronger.
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Not at the level of thinking most non-donators in this game should be on. A raise here says "I think I can beat the donk and want this heads-up, so go piss off with your two big cards."
Sure the call looks super weak, but once we wake up we're showing extreme strength and our opponent is still pretty far away from any sort of commitment.
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The Odds God
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 252
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by The Odds God
I like a flop call also. Raising looks stronger.
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Not at the level of thinking most non-donators in this game should be on. A raise here says "I think I can beat the donk and want this heads-up, so go piss off with your two big cards."
Sure the call looks super weak, but once we wake up we're showing extreme strength and our opponent is still pretty far away from any sort of commitment. |
it depends on what level villain is. Against a good player, reraising is probably better, while against a "weak multitabler" calling probably. Both lines are good though.
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The secret to success in poker is to rig the odds in your favor.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by The Odds God
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by The Odds God
I like a flop call also. Raising looks stronger.
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Not at the level of thinking most non-donators in this game should be on. A raise here says "I think I can beat the donk and want this heads-up, so go piss off with your two big cards."
Sure the call looks super weak, but once we wake up we're showing extreme strength and our opponent is still pretty far away from any sort of commitment. |
it depends on what level villain is. Against a good player, reraising is probably better, while against a "weak multitabler" calling probably. Both lines are good though. |
This was what i was going to say
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
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u should raise the donk on the flop here always
given you didn't raise you should flat btn's flop raise and c/r most turns
ur line is 3rd best but u still need to get it in
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
u should raise the donk on the flop here always
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The man has spoken 
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tooonyg
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go big or go home
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