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zook
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04-18-2008, 03:32 PM
Post subject: 3/6 - AKo in sb - 200bb deep
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Villain is a solid, winning reg, running 18/15/3 over a lot of hands. He might think I'm a little spewy... he's seen me 4bet light and make a couple of big bluffs.
Too nitty?
Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Holdem Ring game - Blinds: $3/$6 - 5 players - Converter
Stack sizes:
UTG: $160
CO: $78.85
Button: $1209.55
Hero: $1393.45
BB: $473
Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with A  K 
2 folds, Button raises to $21, Hero raises to $81, BB folds, Button raises to $249, Hero folds.
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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He thinks you're spewy so you're folding AK preflop? Isn't this the ideal time for your image to win you a big pot?
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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What do you think his 4-bet range is in position? And how would you suggest I proceed so that he'll get money in with worse?
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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I hate that you post results. Against TAG regular your image has got to be really shitty for you to play this hand this deep.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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clicking it back is the only move worse than folding this vs most good players
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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Even if he thinks you're spewy this is a std good fold, given his overall nittyness and how deep we are.
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Quote:
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clicking it back is the only move worse than folding this vs most good players
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I don't know how to argue with this. You rly think he's got air that often? I do agree that it sure is a great spot for a light 4-bet. But if I've never seen villain 4-bet light, then I'm folding this every time. I've put in $81 and I'm sure I can find a better spot to put my money in.
At 1knl+ I'd be more inclined to raise, but here this looks like a fold.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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i guess if hes somehow nitty in these spots then its a fold but this is like the most obvious spot ever to light 4bet so id at least call and play some poker against almost everyone.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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So I botched this hand posting a few ways... sorry for posting results P4s I don't normally do that. Even worse they weren't even the real results 
Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Holdem Ring game - Blinds: $3/$6 - 5 players - Converter
Stack sizes:
UTG: $160
CO: $78.85
Button: $1209.55
Hero: $1393.45
BB: $473
Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with A K
2 folds, Button raises to $21, Hero raises to $81, BB folds, Button raises to $249, Hero calls.
Flop: K  6  8 ($504, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $320, Hero...
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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I think I like c/c here for sure. Don't see much point in raising too much.
I don't mind a small donk lead on flop actually to induce all sorts of madness... if I think he's inducable.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
I think I like c/c here for sure. Don't see much point in raising too much.
I don't mind a small donk lead on flop actually to induce all sorts of madness... if I think he's inducable.
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i also flat preflop some and generally fold to 4bet
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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c/c next street
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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6d. $1144 in the pot, $640 behind.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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nutsinho: So you think there's some utter crap in his 4-bet range here? Because I think hands like sc's and medium to low pp's would rather flat my 3-bet and play a deep pot in position.
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
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just looking for some clarification of why people think folding pre is optimal....
is it because of we are roughly 200bb deep that 5 betting turns our hand into a bluff, even though it is a button vs. small blind situation?
or i
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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The Odds God
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 252
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5betting turns our hand into a bluff. In my experience, people always have AA when they 4bet deep. It is a very good spot to 4bet when you are deep as a bluff, but most people are too scared money to take advantage of that. So I would fold here also, and against aggro players who are capable of 4betting light, I would just cc pf because when 200BB go into the pot, AK is not good.
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The secret to success in poker is to rig the odds in your favor.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
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Quote:
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i guess if hes somehow nitty in these spots then its a fold but this is like the most obvious spot ever to light 4bet so id at least call and play some poker against almost everyone.
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What's our calling range here OOP? We aren't getting set odds so AK/AA/KK seems like the only hands we would consider calling with and that's just too shallow. How are we mixing it up profitably?
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
So I botched this hand posting a few ways... sorry for posting results P4s I don't normally do that. Even worse they weren't even the real results |
Ok, I don't mind you posting results when they actually weren't real
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
Flop: K 6 8 ( $504, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $320, Hero...
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We are obviously calling him down no matter what comes now. We didn't call with AK to hit our king and then fold it and no value in raising. I would say we have him pinned at AA/AK/KK/QQ/JJ or air by now (not that his air couldn't have hit, so K6/K8/68/66/88/XhYh are obviously possible although I think he flats pre with 66/88). I hate his cbet if he has QQ/JJ though.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
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when u hit ur king u have to check/call down there is really no other viable line (this is y calling pre sucks)
i think 1/3 pot lead on flop is also ok
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
when u hit ur king u have to check/call down there is really no other viable line (this is y calling pre sucks)
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bingo imo
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
when u hit ur king u have to check/call down there is really no other viable line (this is y calling pre sucks)
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bingo imo |
STD OBV. Results?
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
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lol, im pretty excited to call down on a Kxxx board with AK in a 4bet pot for only 200bb total
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
Results?
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KK
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
when u hit ur king u have to check/call down there is really no other viable line (this is y calling pre sucks)
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bingo imo |
So we call pre, hit our K and it still sucks it seems (when we're faced with more than one bet postflop). We get 1 bet max out of villain before he shuts down (unless he's super spewy) if we're actually ahead.
So.. why are we calling pre again? Maybe I'm starting to agree with P4's that calling here is kinda bad unless we have a bad image, and or know that villain is playing at us quite a bit.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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griffey, everyone's saying we shouldn't call pre, except nutsinho.
This was a  hand for me, so I thought I'd share. This guy's 4-betting range in position this deep is really tight. He's going to flat with a lot speculative hands (sc's and pp's). If he's good he might 4-bet with some crap to balance, but without a better read I don't assume that.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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yea zook i mean u can do the math adjusted for fold equity pretty easily, but i imagine that u need him to fold around 65% of the time to make a shove correct pre--- and calling is likely worse than shoving given stack sizes unless he is pulling some crazy level with like AQ which he isnt
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Quote:
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lol, im pretty excited to call down on a Kxxx board with AK in a 4bet pot for only 200bb total
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
6d. $1144 in the pot, $640 behind.
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Nobody's excited but getting almost 3:1 this is a tough laydown, but ok I don't mind a fold still.
If we aren't calling the rest then we are probably better off folding flop (TPTK so what). But if we fold this flop then we are probably better off folding pre.
I just think that by calling this preflop we get into marginal situations AT BEST.
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lidelj
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3
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getting good odds to call. he probably at best has QQ or JJ
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
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yeah fold here 200bb deep. 100bb deep its a push.
BTW: There are certain opponents you can not fold here without getting run over, but at these stakes against someone with those stats I feel its correct.
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