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ESS123
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01-12-2010, 09:08 AM
Post subject: 2000NL: HU w aejones and I wanna close eyes and click call
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#1 (permalink)
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 52
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We are 4 tabling. I've been firing multiple barrels a ton, but it's pretty early.
Poker Stars $10/$20 No Limit Hold'em - 2 players -
BB: $6014.50
Hero (BTN/SB): $2000.00
Pre Flop: ($30.00) Hero is BTN/SB with K  9
Hero raises to $40, BB calls $20
Flop: ($80.00) 8 3  6  (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $60, BB calls $60
Turn: ($200.00) K  (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $160, BB calls $160
River: ($520.00) J (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $380, BB raises to $5754.50 all in, Hero
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
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who are you? definitely fold, btw
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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pocketfours
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Yeah but what does he have though? I've got to say I'm feeling slightly curious myself, especially if he views hero as a weak player/scared money, which he of course does at these stakes.
Damn, I think I'd call here actually. Is that really horrible considering the minraise pre, the fact that it's early in the game and that this is very low stakes for villain? If villain is making a vid then I'd fold for sure.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,147
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Yeah this is definitely a fold your range is so strong and he has absolutely nothing he can rep. It's probably just 66.
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ESS123
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2009
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I think he is repping nothing and I think he thinks I will 3barrel this board very often. I also think he will lead a nonzero% with a set, even tho I think this is horrible. I'm not surprised if this is a hand turned into a bluff. He is also NOT making a video.
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nutsinho
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i dont think it is possible for him to have nothing, and it seems like you have enough perceived air in your range that he would not feel compelled to turn something into a bluff. it is of course a very good play when used sparingly if im folding everything worse than KJ from my wide valuebetting range but I just think he has little motivation to pull it often enough for you to be concerned.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Warpe
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Introduce yourself, sir...or not....whatever floats yer boat.
Welcome to FTR!
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Yeah this is definitely a fold your range is so strong and he has absolutely nothing he can rep. It's probably just 66.
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I would probably never flat 33/66 oop hu facing a minraise early in a match. Not a clue about villain's preflop tendencies though.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
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and his single most likely hand is definitely 88, though i think i would call with KJ
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Introduce yourself, sir...or not....whatever floats yer boat.
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We don't need any introductions here, wtf? This is a poker strategy forum.
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ESS123
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2009
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I'd rather stay anonymous. Dont you think 88 is wayyyyy discounted due to pre and flop
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ilikeaces86
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I have not played vs AE in a few years so I don't have personal knowledge of his game like nutsinho does but I would fold here and feel very good about it.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
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I could imagine a very good player like AE shoving in this type of spot as a bluff but no way in this board texture. You may be 3 barrelling very light here but he can't rep anything. I think its pretty obvious to him that its much more likely your calling with a hand like 63/J8 than folding it.
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ESS123
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2009
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sooooooo
calling range here? worst hand we call?
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The surest way to end a gambling career is to gamble.
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Alexos
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Agree with nutsinhooo, although i always thought players of this caliber do this alot more often with air so we should call here at least sometimes. But maybe I'd be lvling myself
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
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agree with nuts. Just isnt a bluff, as for your calling range... i feel like you should fold 33 here idk if i do it in the moment though.
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ESS123
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3-of-a-Kind
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calling with 12 combos here? What? That is ridiculously exploitable and vs someone like ae you obviously have to worry about that
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ATOTHEC101
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Full House
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This is probably a fold but the idea of folding 33 here seems ridic to me seeing as he can def have stuff like k6,k8,kj and is now jamming for value. Calling range is probably kj+ and even that feels really exploitable.
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"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
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ESS123
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3-of-a-Kind
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i think K8 is more of a call than KJ
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ATOTHEC101
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Full House
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Meh, blockers are overated. kj feels like an easier call than k8 in my mind for obvious reasons. Theres probably a decent chance he 3 bets both pre anyway, more so 88 due to it being harder to play oop, but maybe not if you're calling alot of his 3 bets in position. I actually think this is fairly close to a call.
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"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ATOTHEC101
This is probably a fold but the idea of folding 33 here seems ridic to me seeing as he can def have stuff like k6,k8,kj and is now jamming for value. Calling range is probably kj+ and even that feels really exploitable.
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Of course its exploitable! But he's probably not exploiting it. There's no reason for him to think you're folding even AK here.
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Meh, blockers are overated. kj feels like an easier call than k8 in my mind for obvious reasons. Theres probably a decent chance he 3 bets both pre anyway, more so 88 due to it being harder to play oop, but maybe not if you're calling alot of his 3 bets in position. I actually think this is fairly close to a call.
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He 3bets K8, KJ, and 88 pre? I'm wondering why you think so... Personally i don't 3bet any of these as a default (although that can change very quickly) but my mind could be changed.
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ATOTHEC101
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Full House
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This is hu facing a minraise, I would have thought ae would be 3 betting 88/kj alot more than he is flatting it, and no I don't think hes 3 betting k8, you must have miss interpreted my above post. I actually think this is 66/33/k8 and alot less frequently 88/86/kj hearts or we have the best hand. Also op stated that he thinks he leads sets a decent portion here which does discredit his line somewhat.
My thoughts have been kind of jumbled in this thread and obv several different arguments can be made on what set combos are more or less likely to be in his range due to his pf tendencies/gameflow etc but my basic stance is that I think this is a call as there are just not that many hands villain can have that beat us.
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"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
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AE is well known to 3bet a rather polarized range preflop, even vs minraisers
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
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If I was AE I would never ever bluff here, and I assume he'd think the same thing.
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sauce123
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its funny cause ive been playing these games, and no one folds anything, contrary to what it might seem on these forums.... nutsinho does fold AND call tho i admit
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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POKERGODLUV
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: INDIANA
Posts: 2
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I believe this was a good fold. My guess in range that this guy was a trips best prob more like j8 or k8, at his worst he had QQ or TT and missed but made a move on you.
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ESS123
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2009
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i called and won
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The surest way to end a gambling career is to gamble.
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ESS123
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 52
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dont bluff me
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The surest way to end a gambling career is to gamble.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
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wow
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ESS123
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 52
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wow can be interpreted many ways--
wow- you actually called here
wow- he actually bluffed here
wow- you gaze into souls
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The surest way to end a gambling career is to gamble.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
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wow he actually bluffed there
no disrespect to you, i just dont see how this is a call.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ESS123
i called and won
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Well played. I don't feel like a complete moron anymore 
AE is a really smart guy as I've gathered from his vids, and he can certainly see that this isn't a spot where a good player wouldn't call him light very often. I think saying this is a very easy fold isn't giving AE enough credit.
Seems that AE thinks your game is pretty decent, but then again so are most that fourtable 2k hu these days.
Just keep in mind that you might have done the wrong play at the right time 
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,147
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ESS123
i called and won
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Well played. I don't feel like a complete moron anymore
AE is a really smart guy as I've gathered from his vids, and he can certainly see that this isn't a spot where a good player wouldn't call him light very often. I think saying this is a very easy fold isn't giving AE enough credit.
Seems that AE thinks your game is pretty decent, but then again so are most that fourtable 2k hu these days. |
I disagree with this, I think AE made a really bad bluff and made a very bad read on ESS's game. You can't make this bluff versus a good hand reader who doesn't think your an r-tard nit.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I disagree with this, I think AE made a really bad bluff and made a very bad read on ESS's game. You can't make this bluff versus a good hand reader who doesn't think your an r-tard nit.
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How exactly is this "a really bad bluff" when you all instafolded? Is it really unthinkable that he would expect hero to think EXACTLY like all of you did?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
this is definitely a fold
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
I would fold here and feel very good about it.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
no way (he is bluffing) in this board texture
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Alexos
Agree with nutsinhooo
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Numbr2intheWorld
Just isnt a bluff
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
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Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
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yea i mean obviously have to agree with p4s here...are you leveling danny?
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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ESS123
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2009
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It's a bad bluff if, in the state of metagame we were in, he thought that I thought he would turn a hand into a bluff. Obviously he did not think this, and thought I would bet/fold one pair hands, maybe even some junk 2 pairs. Obviously this was not the case, given that I actually snap called here, and planned to bet/call prior. I mentioned in the OP that he HAD to be fed up with my barreling, as he was constantly folding, and I felt he would take a stand here. He had 65o fwiw.
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The surest way to end a gambling career is to gamble.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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yea i mean obviously have to agree with p4s here...are you leveling danny?
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No I'm not leveling. Maybe I have a very bad grasp of what people think of each other now that I haven't played HU cash regularly in awhile. But I have certainly tried bluffing in spots like this many times and have gotten folds from bad players but calls from good to very good players. Also, given how stationy I am I never see this bluff tried against me so maybe I just don't have the scope to understand ESS's image and AE's thought process that would make him want to bluff here.
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ESS123
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3-of-a-Kind
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Yeah I think this was largely a metagame/leveling spot so it may be hard to discuss: I still thought it may be worth posting.
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The surest way to end a gambling career is to gamble.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Speaking of leveling. Nice donk-title.
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ESS123
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 52
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donk title? You mean the thread? "3barrel gets jammed on by aejones" seems way too boring IYAM
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The surest way to end a gambling career is to gamble.
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nutsinho
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well the title does seem a bit deceitful if for some reason you thought it was a bet/snap. sometimes I get the feeling that I need to betcall a river with not the nuts in a meh spot and ill do it. most of the time ill get shown the nuts. Im going to continue going off on a tangent because it is drunken rant time again. It doesnt make sense to ever EVER snapcall a river checkraise without the nuts or very close to it- when you quickly call you are giving your opponent way way way way way too much insight into your thought process. you always want to leave your opponent guessing about the way you think of 'tough' river spots and about how you think he plays. If i make a "bad" bluff against someone on the river and they quickly call with something toward the bottom of their range I just come away from the hand thinking, lol what a retard. This isn't because I think they should have folded to my raise because of the way my range interacts with theirs in the spot, or because I think they have a pedestrian grasp of handreading or game dynamics, but because they have just given me a ton of information just hoping to make me feel owned or because they were excited to follow through on a read that they shouldnt be giving me any clues about. professional poker is not about showing off how much you own someones soul; take your time with river actions and dont give anything away
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Drunken rant gold
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
Full House
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damn pretty good drunk post.
I lol'd at "it is drunken rant time again". Somehow I pictured you writing that in the same tone a parent would say to their kid "it's bed time", but drunken rant time is a lot better.
Just playing devil's advocate, because I imagine good players like AE Jones will be wary of this, but when people snapcall fatality like that it can definitely tilt the hell out of their opponent and give them a bigger immediate edge.
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Family Cruise IMO
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ESS123
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 52
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yeah rich i agree that's good advice. fwiw I didn't like hover mouse over call and snap. But as I bet I almost sensed he was gunna jam, and I thought that I would probably not fold if he did. I called pretty fast but not turbo call or anything, perhaps 5-7 seconds, and most of my thinking about what line to take on river had been done before I bet. I didn't wanna bet like 475 or something and call, bc I think his range is vastly different than his range for shoving over my bet that is a bit smaller.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ravageur
damn pretty good drunk post.
I lol'd at "it is drunken rant time again". Somehow I pictured you writing that in the same tone a parent would say to their kid "it's bed time", but drunken rant time is a lot better.
Just playing devil's advocate, because I imagine good players like AE Jones will be wary of this, but when people snapcall fatality like that it can definitely tilt the hell out of their opponent and give them a bigger immediate edge.
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eh I mean he is playing low stakes for himself, I think him tilting vs. the way he was actually playing isn't much different, since he doesn't care too much about this money.
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The surest way to end a gambling career is to gamble.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,147
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Quote:
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well the title does seem a bit deceitful if for some reason you thought it was a bet/snap. sometimes I get the feeling that I need to betcall a river with not the nuts in a meh spot and ill do it. most of the time ill get shown the nuts. Im going to continue going off on a tangent because it is drunken rant time again. It doesnt make sense to ever EVER snapcall a river checkraise without the nuts or very close to it- when you quickly call you are giving your opponent way way way way way too much insight into your thought process. you always want to leave your opponent guessing about the way you think of 'tough' river spots and about how you think he plays. If i make a "bad" bluff against someone on the river and they quickly call with something toward the bottom of their range I just come away from the hand thinking, lol what a retard. This isn't because I think they should have folded to my raise because of the way my range interacts with theirs in the spot, or because I think they have a pedestrian grasp of handreading or game dynamics, but because they have just given me a ton of information just hoping to make me feel owned or because they were excited to follow through on a read that they shouldnt be giving me any clues about. professional poker is not about showing off how much you own someones soul; take your time with river actions and dont give anything away
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Solid points. I have to say I don't think people have the level of focus, including myself, to deduce some information like this out of river snap calls like you do.
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ESS123
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2009
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teach me teh focus nuts teach me!!
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The surest way to end a gambling career is to gamble.
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