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griffey24
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11-28-2007, 02:02 PM
Post subject: 2/5 pounds 3-handed, deepish, what do you call with?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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-villain is running 26/17/1.7
-We have been playing for a while 3-handed. I was on his other side for most of the play. We had MANY bvb hands whre I raised my SB he called his BB and floated my cont bets. He called ALL of my cont bets and bet when I checked the turn. If I c/r'd the turn, he often folded
-The few hands where I c/c'd the turn and c/c'd the river he showed up with some turn/rivered hand to outdraw me
-ever since I switched sides, he has started raising most buttons. I have 3-bet him a few times from SB and he's folded pre. Once I think he floated my cont bet on a J high board and i check/folded the turn
-what do I have in this hand or what do you call with as villain?
Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $2/$5
3 players
Converter
Stack sizes:
Button: $1379.70
Hero: $743.25
BB: $1041.20
Pre-flop: (3 players) Hero is SB with :X: :X:
Button raises to $20, Hero raises to $63, BB folds, Button calls.
Flop:    ($131, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $80, Hero calls $80 (pot was $211).
Turn:  ($291, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $200, Hero raises all-in $600.25
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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u better be huuuge or this sucks
like KcKx huge
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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The Grouch
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: representing a narrow range
Posts: 26
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ew this is so gross, nobody double barrels here into a 3 bettor pre without something very big. Clubbed Kings may even just be drawing to 11 outs
edit: I should also mention that your line just represents such a narrow range.... like flopped flush or AcKo
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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I think raising here in general is pretty gross without a really strong hand (or a bluff??). I'd say you likely have something like AcA, KcK, or some real strong hand that doesn't have to worry about the fourth flush card. And if I'm in your position and have a hand like AcK or AcQ I think you very well could take this line.
Opp very well could be betting as thin as 9x here, but i'd expect no thinner. I'm not sure if I call here if I'm him without T9, AA/KK, or a set, or a flush.
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The Grouch
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: representing a narrow range
Posts: 26
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I'm not sure if I call here if I'm him without T9, AA/KK, or a set, or a flush.
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how can he fold any 9 or T, I mean hero is representing like 3 better hands and infinity semi-bluffs
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by The Grouch
ew this is so gross, nobody double barrels here into a 3 bettor pre without something very big. Clubbed Kings may even just be drawing to 11 outs
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I agree in most cases this may be true. But after playing with him today for about an hour or so 3-handed, EVERY SINGLE TIME I checked to him in any pot he bet. He never checked through, EVER. Some of the times I c/c'd down after the turn and he sucked out (ie: he had nothing much on the flop) or I c'rd turn and he folded (so he probably still had nothing those times)
Does this change the range I need to do this? I don't think we can assume that him barrelling here means he's that strong necessarily. Knowing that he will bet if I check to him, am I better of betting more marginal hands or c/cing them?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by The Grouch
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I'm not sure if I call here if I'm him without T9, AA/KK, or a set, or a flush.
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how can he fold any 9 or T, I mean hero is representing like 3 better hands and infinity semi-bluffs |
Why am I representing so many bluffs here? Because I checked two streets and then pushed? Why wouldn't I check two streets with ANY hand, if I KNOW he will bet?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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The Grouch
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: representing a narrow range
Posts: 26
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
Why am I representing so many bluffs here?
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You have to think about the type of hands that you are going to check/call the flop with AND then check again on the turn (risking a check through).
Sure maybe you could check red aces or kings (or sets) once, but if you are not regularly check raising them on the flop or at the very least donking the turn even against an opponent who is constnatly barrelling then you are risking having the board come ugly enough for him to shut down, suckout, or bluff you off your hand. .....I mean you can't really say that he's NEVER going to check back the turn (or flop)
So essentially by check/calling then checking turn your range now consists of flushes, one club AK, KQ, KJ type hands and clubbed overpairs.
I also assume that, like most good aggressive players, you are betting the made hand part of this range a large % of the time and often looking to checkraise all in on a semi-bluff with the club containing broadway hands.
So you can see why it would not be particularly unreasonable to call you very lightly in this spot as your range is weighted heavily towards unmade hands.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by The Grouch
Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
Why am I representing so many bluffs here?
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You have to think about the type of hands that you are going to check/call the flop with AND then check again on the turn (risking a check through).
Sure maybe you could check red aces or kings (or sets) once, but if you are not regularly check raising them on the flop or at the very least donking the turn even against an opponent who is constnatly barrelling then you are risking having the board come ugly enough for him to shut down, suckout, or bluff you off your hand. .....I mean you can't really say that he's NEVER going to check back the turn (or flop)
So essentially by check/calling then checking turn your range now consists of flushes, one club AK, KQ, KJ type hands and clubbed overpairs.
I also assume that, like most good aggressive players, you are betting the made hand part of this range a large % of the time and often looking to checkraise all in on a semi-bluff with the club containing broadway hands.
So you can see why it would not be particularly unreasonable to call you very lightly in this spot as your range is weighted heavily towards unmade hands. |
Ok very good post, and a lot of this makes sense.
I won't say what I had yet, but villain DID call me very light. He called me with Ac4. Given my range here, should calling so lightly be expected?
I was pretty surprised to get called that lightly (given that I hadn't gotten out of line too much), but maybe I shouldn't have been so surprised given how weird my line was?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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eh, i think you can be repping AA or KK with no club easily. Also i'm pretty sure villain never has a 9 or T, or even JJ, QQ. It's either a semibluff, a set, a flush, or KK AA no clubs, and his bet size really isn't telling me anything. I bet you can get KK to fold, probably not AA.
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The Grouch
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: representing a narrow range
Posts: 26
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Massimo, I'd love to hear you explain how this would be an optimal play with AA KK no club
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Massimo
eh, i think you can be repping AA or KK with no club easily. Also i'm pretty sure villain never has a 9 or T, or even JJ, QQ. It's either a semibluff, a set, a flush, or KK AA no clubs, and his bet size really isn't telling me anything. I bet you can get KK to fold, probably not AA.
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Rethink this post.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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If i have Ac4 and im opp im pretty sure im beat like 90% of the time but he may have to call based on very likely large amount of outs unless u have a flush. Ac is a huge card here for opp (especially because of your range) and given that he had it here i think he played the turn very badly.
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The Grouch
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: representing a narrow range
Posts: 26
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Ac is a huge card here for opp... given that he had it here i think he played the turn very badly.
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I agree. Elaborate.
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pocketfours
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11-29-2007, 12:02 AM
Post subject: Re: 2/5 pounds 3-handed, deepish, what do you call with?
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#15 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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P4's? 
I don't think he is calling light with Ac4. I'm sure he didn't think he is ahead very often, he just thought he has the correct odds to call, which isn't unreasonable since the pot is offering almost 3:1. He needs 13 outs if he is never behind and since a large part of your range consists of draws, this looks like a std call with Ac4.
Villain preflop call and turn bets are horrible.
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