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10/20- ppl arent as retarded anymore (x-post)

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sauce123

12-22-2007, 04:19 AM Post subject: 10/20- ppl arent as retarded anymore (x-post)

#1 (permalink)

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Posts: 2,405

at 5/10 people's river c/r ranges and the lines which set them up are almost always extremely unbalanced to the point I just value bet razor thin without any real reservations because they like to talk themselves into calling. at higher levels some very clear value betting hands become bluff catchers to river c/r...

some of the 10/20+ regs ive found balance their river ranges much better and are capable of turning made hands into bluffs with an appropriate frequency. any tips on using history, preflop ranges, lines and stuff to approximate these things from those of you beating 10/20+....

Couple examples from today's session:

Villain in hand is an aggro, winner etc...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $20 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Hero ($2211)
SB ($3715)
BB ($6568.50)
UTG ($2187)
MP ($2030)
CO ($2777)

Preflop: Hero is Button with

.
3 folds, Hero raises to $70, SB calls $60, 1 fold.

Flop: ($160)

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($160)

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $120, SB raises to $340, Hero calls $220.

River: ($840)

(2 players)
SB checks,

bet sizing/ response to a checkraise?

hand 2 is against 20BuckSpin. Relevant history from this session which has been long is that ive gotten deep vs him on a few tables and have been 3betting him in position pretty relentlessly. in spots OOP he had raise/folded for the first 12 or so 3bets, shoving once and folding the vast majority (which of course led to me continuing to 3bet). The last time i 3bet he called and I took almost this exact same line on a paired board as a bluff and he timebanked before eventually folding the river. so preflop/flop ranges should be extremely wide here though the UTG/UTG+1 thing should change the dynamic, I'm very unsure of how much as 20Buck will open hands like K8s UTG and he knows that I know this. So this is a question on all parts of my line considering history...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $20 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Button ($2088)
SB ($2999)
BB ($2000)
UTG ($3029)
Hero ($6468)

Preflop: Hero is MP with

.
UTG raises to $60, Hero raises to $200, 3 folds, UTG calls $140.

Flop: ($430)

(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $280, UTG calls $280.

Turn: ($990)

(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: ($990)

(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $720, UTG raises to $2549

so how do i go about figuring out the % he turns made hands into bluffs here, and just how wide do i go on preflop/flop range? also, does anyone disagree that my hand is a bluffcatcher here?

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pocketfours

12-22-2007, 02:55 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Very interesting hands. I haven't played very much 2knl (< 10k hands, but my winrate is positive though). Here's my 2c:

I don't really like to call oop with anything but pocket pairs and sometimes AK, unless stacks are deep and/or villain is bad. If villain is 3-betting IP alot, then I like to 4-bet bluff sometimes instead of calling.

Hand 1:
Your hand is actually pretty weak here. Villain doesn't have any worse two pair hands in his range, and not many one pair hands are calling a river bet.

He has a missed draw a lot of the time, so I don't see much merit in a b/f. Either check behind or b/c. I would bet $350 to induce a bluff and snap call a raise/shove. The added benefit with the small bet is that one pair hands are more likely to call.

Hand 2:
Your hand is garbage. You pretty much have the hand that you are representing and players usually don't expect you to fold a big overpair. This is the perfect spot for a value check-raise with a set, so I would just check behind.

Preflop raise seems small since you are deep. I also think you shouldn't check turn for pot control if you aren't going to fold the hand to a c/r on the river.

Renton

12-23-2007, 12:03 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Posts: 5,991

Hand 1, i think its clearly the spot to make a pretty big bet, at least 3/4 the pot, as there are definitely worse hands in his range that are calling when the rivers a total blank and a ton of your perceived range is a hand with outs that peeled the turn.

Also i'd insta call a push for mostly the same reason, and sadly i'd also call pretty much because of the awesome strength of my cards in a button/sb battle vs an aggro tag. I mean i know that we're supposed to think of each hand like a snowflake and all that but we do have a backdoored top two pair on a bricked river after all.

Hand 2 is a lot tougher imo. I know its hard for you to look so far ahead and plan on how to respond to a river c/r on a blank when u decided whether to bet the turn. That said, I think from a practicality standpoint him making the same raise when u bet the turn would definitely be an easier fold than him c/ring the river after the turn goes check check.

Im not sure that i bet the turn, just laying that out, it would definitely avoid shitty spots. I think the fact that you just took this line and didn't showdown doesn't have a whole lot of relevance here just because of the dramatic difference in the board texture and preflop positioning.

Does he have a read on your pf reraise range in this spot? A lot of ppl have v weird ranges here, like some tags only 3b AK QQ+ here, some don't 3bet at all.

Anyway, I'm not really offering anything here, its a super tough spot and I'm not sure what I'd do. I think I would fold, prolly cos:

-I don't think he expects me to fold a lot here. Like, if he has a medium strength hand and is turning it into a bluff, I think thats gonna be a tall order to get many better hands to fold.

-So ergo I'm putting him on kinda a polar range as opposed to the merged one u put him on.

-So ergo, since he c/c the flop, this is gonna weight his hand range toward the part that has you beat. His flop c/c range is gonna be sets, Jx, QQ, TT, 99, mayyyyybe 77- but i think he's prob smart enough that he knows he can't come out ahead with underpairs and these stacks (assuming he respects your game at all), and the oesd (i doubt he's c/r a str8 draw with these stacks). So on the river the part of that range you beat, but may c/r bluff is the oesd which is now a pair, and 99. So, im not calling hoping to see two hands.

gabe

12-23-2007, 07:28 AM

#4 (permalink)

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gotta bet first one, TWO PAIR

2nd one im guessing u checked turn so u could rep missed AK on riv and gain another bet, and that means u gotta call now

nutsinho

12-23-2007, 07:36 AM

#5 (permalink)

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i'd bet smallish/call a c/r on hand 1. prob doesnt need too much explanation.

hand 2: i think fold...
you are prob betting all hands that call a strong lead from him, as well as bluffing occasionally, so he's prob c/ring all of his hands that are >KK. OTOH, you cant really have a set so he may just c/r his whole range if he thinks you think he's been staying in line.

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Numbr2intheWorld

12-23-2007, 04:16 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Hand 1 just seems like a really clear bet/fold.

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Numbr2intheWorld

12-24-2007, 05:49 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Hand 2 you just have to know the player but yeah i agree your hand is a bluff catcher

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Genitruc

12-29-2007, 07:12 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Massimo

Hand 2 you just have to know the player but yeah i agree your hand is a bluff catcher

based on everything I've read about buck I think 2 is bet-call

when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?

chris_k14

01-09-2008, 01:50 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Hand 1 i'd bet half on river.
Hand 2 looks like you were weak on flop and bluffed river, if he's caught a set he's payed it very well. I would call.

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10/20- ppl arent as retarded anymore (x-post)

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