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gabe
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09-19-2006, 04:18 AM
Post subject: 10/20 full, bare Ace fd + pair in unraised pot
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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been playing some full ring on party, and i know there are lots of adjustments i need to make.
im playing too many tables to have a solid read, but his stack size and the fact i dont see him on any other tables makes me think he sucks.
this play seems easy in a raised pot but how bad is it in unraised full table
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
saw flop|saw showdown
UTG ($1980)
UTG+1 ($2749.39)
MP1 ($287.42)
MP2 ($1125.75)
CO ($2447)
Button ($1623.32)
SB ($1202)
Hero ($2066.50)
Preflop: Hero is BB with 7 , A . SB posts a blind of $10.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $20, 1 fold, MP2 calls $20, 1 fold, Button calls $20, SB (poster) completes, Hero checks.
Flop: ($100) 7, 9, 4 (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $70, UTG+1 folds, MP2 raises to $175, Button folds, SB folds, Hero raises to $560, MP2 folds.
Final Pot: $835
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Bmxicle
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Vancouver
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you just need to know if he is a nit or not, so long as he isn't a total nit this is very standard. No crazy reads are neccessary, just a very basic feel for his play type.
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ripjohngotti
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,191
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Wow you have 7 high and a draw.
I dont see how a move like this can ev+, you have 3 to the flush with the ace and midpair. Am I missing something. Just seems risking 600 bucks to win 20 dollars doesnt make sense.
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Bmxicle
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 947
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lololol
he is risking 560 to win 345. In and of itself this isn't +ev, but throw in the fact that he has 2 outs to three of akind, 3 outs to a strong two pair, and 9 outs to THE NUTS, this is very +EV. So even when he is called he is going to suck out (albeit not get paid off much most of the time) alot. This concept called "semi bluffing" is a HUGE part of high stakes play and is essential to becoming a good highstakes player.
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ripjohngotti
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,191
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Yeah he limped for 20, making the pot 335 
Well if he gets called he is pretty much Beat probably a set or even by two pair heck maybe even a flush already, I just dont like this play he has absolutely nothing.
The only plus side about this play I see is there is no ace or no king on the board. But I still dont like it.
But I guess youve got to make these plays sometimes in ring. 
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Bmxicle
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 947
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yes he may only get called by a set or two pair...that is almost the entire point of making the play to make him fold, and when he doesn't fold we still have outs.
You are going to get ripped to shreds if you continue posting about things like this you have no clue about...and i'm not trying to be a prick here.
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ripjohngotti
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,191
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bmxicle
yes he may only get called by a set or two pair...that is almost the entire point of making the play to make him fold, and when he doesn't fold we still have outs.
You are going to get ripped to shreds if you continue posting about things like this you have no clue about...and i'm not trying to be a prick here.
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Well, thats the way I learn more post less topics. I can see now that he has fold equity if in fact this guy does have two pair which is why he is making this play but if he gets called I still dont see him being able to draw to outs unless u pin him to two pair which is unlikely on this board(very scarey, draw heavy, straights, etc).Probably only a Q K or maybe a suited flush or a set. There your behind, making a huge pot with a-7 and possible loosing a big pot.
If he does get called, which id put him on a flush already, your drawing to 7 outs, against a set youd still have 9 outs making you a 65% dog.
Draws are death. This play just seems like a gamble where youd probably be behind with A7.
Then I could see the side where this guy possibly has QQ or KK with the spade which is unlikely because its a limped pot.This is whered you be drawing to about 8 to the flush, 5 to the a/7. Making you have 13 outs to suckout. Yet still behind.
Thats my 2 cents.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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looks pretty standard to me.
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Margin Of Error
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 254
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I like it because the only hand I see calling here is a made flush which you have good odds to suck out against.
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She looked at me and said youz a baby right?
I told her, I'm 18 and live a crazy life
Plus I'll tell you what the 80's like
And I know what ladies like
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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RIP, maybe you shouldn't be reading the high stakes forum until you get the low limit game worked out, i.e. plays like this aren't necessary at 25NL or $5.50, helpful, but not necessary.
High stakes forum is an interesting read but I"m expecting a post tomorrow where you try this and complain about it not working.
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ripjohngotti
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,191
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Margin Of Error
I like it because the only hand I see calling here is a made flush which you have good odds to suck out against.
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Good odds to suck out on turn? Lets see 6 of the 13 flush cards are out, You have about 7 outs about a 28% Chance to win.
I think the flush would be more inclided to just flat call while the set wants to push him all in. But who knows either way he is behind.
I can see his play as good , but it seems he wants 2 pair to call him, I just dont see players calling with two pair here.
But this guy is a LAGG player and others will want to play against him with 2 pair or jack high flush, plus the fold equity+draws to suck out, this could make for a great play but with a risk/reward of 40/60 still going against him even with the slight fold equity. I just dont like draws. But you hold Midpair and The ace. Making it much harder for one to call in this spot. But if you do your gonna be behind. But it does take these plays sometimes to take down big pots and show that your boss at the table, just not always.
The reason why Im so against it is because Your playing a/7 and im sure your labeled as a maniac, making a call here more then likely and you wil be behind, but if you do win your table image a complete maniac,players cant see past there han
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ilikeaces86
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,141
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ripjohngotti
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Margin Of Error
I like it because the only hand I see calling here is a made flush which you have good odds to suck out against.
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Good odds to suck out on turn? Lets see 6 of the 13 flush cards are out, You have about 7 outs about a 28% Chance to win.
I think the flush would be more inclided to just flat call while the set wants to push him all in. But who knows either way he is behind.
I can see his play as good , but it seems he wants 2 pair to call him, I just dont see players calling with two pair here.
But this guy is a LAGG player and will put 0thers on there real form of poker being a donk, plus the fold equity+draws to suck out, this could make for a great play but with a risk/reward of 40/60 still going in his favor the times he gets others to fold. I just dont like draws. But you hold Midpair and The ace. Making it much harder for one to call in this spot.
The reason why Im so against it is because Your playing a/7 and im sure your labeled as a maniac, making a call here more then likely and you wil be behind, but if you do win your table image a complete maniac, as a typical player isn't watching for "fold equity" midpair plus flush draw , with no ace on board, They cant see past there hand. |
Are you a real person?
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Which part of semi-BLUFF don't you get? It's not supposed to be called.
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ripjohngotti
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,191
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Yep, im still against this move but one if you make it and are called, more then likely you will be behind. Its a limped pot.
QQ KK AA aren't limped at a 10 table . 44 is possible, 99 is possible, 2 suited spades are possible holdings of a player. These are the only hands that when called you are behind and in this spot, noone is playing 2 pair against your holding on this scarey ass board.
This move probably has better outcome on a raised board because your putting them to the test if they hold KK, QQ with the spade and repping the fold equity.
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30%
Still looking for my royal flush.
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AHiltz
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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QQ KK AA aren't limped at a 10 table
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Not true at all.
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ripjohngotti
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,191
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AHiltz
Quote:
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QQ KK AA aren't limped at a 10 table
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Not true at all. |
You know what I meant
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 1,242
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ripjohngotti
Yep, im still against this move but one if you make it and are called, more then likely you will be behind. Its a limped pot.
QQ KK AA aren't limped at a 10 table . 44 is possible, 99 is possible, 2 suited spades are possible holdings of a player. These are the only hands that when called you are behind and in this spot, noone is playing 2 pair against your holding on this scarey ass board.
This move probably has better outcome on a raised board because your putting them to the test if they hold KK, QQ with the spade and repping the fold equity.
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I really don't mean to be a prick, but I like the idea of the High Stakes Forum on FTR having some credibility, so I like to think that a lot of the advice given in it are from solid insightful players (read = probably not me  ). I have no idea what your poker experience is (maybe you pwn high stakess), but from the content of your posts I'm a bit unsure if you shouldn't still be hanging down with us on the normal NL HHs forum. Plz don't take this personally. Anyway it's not my place to say this anyway, so i'll be quiet now.
Btw regarding the hand I think it's standard. Villain is folding any pair on the board, and you're barely a dog against an overpair.
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Family Cruise IMO
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ripjohngotti
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,191
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ravageur
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ripjohngotti
Yep, im still against this move but one if you make it and are called, more then likely you will be behind. Its a limped pot.
QQ KK AA aren't limped at a 10 table . 44 is possible, 99 is possible, 2 suited spades are possible holdings of a player. These are the only hands that when called you are behind and in this spot, noone is playing 2 pair against your holding on this scarey ass board.
This move probably has better outcome on a raised board because your putting them to the test if they hold KK, QQ with the spade and repping the fold equity.
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I really don't mean to be a prick, but I like the idea of the High Stakes Forum on FTR having some credibility, so I like to think that a lot of the advice givin it are from solid insightful players (read = probably not me ). I have no idea what your poker experience is (maybe you pwn high stakess), but from the content of your posts I'm a bit unsure if you shouldn't still be hanging down with us on the normal NL HHs forum. Plz don't take this personally. Anyway it's not my place to say this anyway, so i'll be quiet now.
Btw regarding the hand I think it's standard. Villain is folding any pair on the board, and you're barely a dog against an overpair. |
People do hit flushes and trips. Dont take it the wrong way you just say my insight was stupid I gave my opinion on the hand and backed it up.
Better then being on this guys nuts and saying "great Hand" "well played" because u see the fold.
He asked if it was standard on a 10 player table and I gave my opinion why this play is somewhat Risky even with fold equity in a limped pot. All you have is outs if many.
Please dont take my post the wrong way.
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ripjohngotti
He asked if it was standard on a 10 player table and I gave my opinion why this play is somewhat Risky even with fold equity in a limped pot.
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Standard at 25NL != standard at 200NL != standard at 2000NL
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Xianti
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: facebook.com/xianti
Posts: 5,289
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ripjohn, why are you even reading the High Stakes forum here, let alone commenting in its threads???
YOU'RE NOT READY.
Poker at this level is WAY different from the lower stakes that you're still struggling with. Please refrain from posting in High Stakes until you're rolled for and are playing at this level.
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Pingviini
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 1,090
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Gabe, I dont know  in SH this is an easy move and naturally a call after a push but I guess that is why I dont really do as well in full as I do in short ring.
Playing draws, especially combos is extremely important in high stakes poker. This leads me to this brag Sorry gabriel, I had to hijack this one. http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...=396838#396838
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boost
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 706
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ripjohngotti
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Margin Of Error
I like it because the only hand I see calling here is a made flush which you have good odds to suck out against.
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Good odds to suck out on turn? Lets see 6 of the 13 flush cards are out, You have about 7 outs about a 28% Chance to win.
I think the flush would be more inclided to just flat call while the set wants to push him all in. But who knows either way he is behind.
I can see his play as good , but it seems he wants 2 pair to call him, I just dont see players calling with two pair here.
But this guy is a LAGG player and will put 0thers on there real form of poker being a donk, plus the fold equity+draws to suck out, this could make for a great play but with a risk/reward of 40/60 still going in his favor the times he gets others to fold. I just dont like draws. But you hold Midpair and The ace. Making it much harder for one to call in this spot.
The reason why Im so against it is because Your playing a/7 and im sure your labeled as a maniac, making a call here more then likely and you wil be behind, but if you do win your table image a complete maniac, as a typical player isn't watching for "fold equity" midpair plus flush draw , with no ace on board, They cant see past there hand. |
Are you a real person? |
this is exactly what I was thinking while reading through this all.
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TripsChaos
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 86
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Ripjohn, i think the thing you missing here is due to the fact that you are completley misreading this hand.
You keep assuming that this is a bad play because the raise will only be called by a monster hand, therefore he is hopefully drawing to the nut flush and not up against a set.
But it you analyze the hand from the beginning you'll see that MP2 pretty much shows that his reraise was a tester, and not an indication of strength.
In a 4 way limp in pot, gabe leads out with middle pair and nut flush draw for 70 into an 80 pot. UTG + 1 fold leaving 2 players left to act, and MP2 raises a measily 105 dollars, making the pot 255, giving gabe about 2.5 to 1 just call.
Wouldn't you think, in position, if MP2 had trips or big 2 pair, he would smooth call or make a bigger riase with another player and the ititial raiser still to act?
If hes a conservative player, hell put a big raise out there to chase away any draws, but a risky, gambling player would smooth call, hopefully allowing the other player acting to call and miss, or reraise allwoing him to move in with his monster.
I think the bet is a tester, seeing if gabe was trying to pick up a limp in pot, and when gabe moves it, MP2 lays down like a 98, 910, j9, ormaybe something worse.
Nice play gabe
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aislephive
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Downswinging holla!
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RJG, seriously stfu man.
Gabe, I think this play is marginal and probably neutral in EV at best. Given his stack and the fact that you still should have a fair amount of fold equity I don't think in this instance that it's bad at all. But let's say he had 2k in front and he had bet out, then you raised and then he 3 bets, I think a 4 bet ai there would be bad. He hasn't shown a whole lot of strength in this hand though so I think it's a fine play. Beware though, especially in unraised pots when somebody shows a lot of strength, it generally means a huge hand, especially in FR. I'm sure you're quite aware of this, just something to keep in mind. I don't like to push combo draws in unraised pots for 100bbs at all, too often you're up against a huge hand that has you crushed.
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ripjohngotti
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,191
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by aislephive
RJG, seriously stfu man.
Gabe, I think this play is marginal and probably neutral in EV at best. Given his stack and the fact that you still should have a fair amount of fold equity I don't think in this instance that it's bad at all. But let's say he had 2k in front and he had bet out, then you raised and then he 3 bets, I think a 4 bet ai there would be bad. He hasn't shown a whole lot of strength in this hand though so I think it's a fine play. Beware though, especially in unraised pots when somebody shows a lot of strength, it generally means a huge hand, especially in FR. I'm sure you're quite aware of this, just something to keep in mind. I don't like to push combo draws in unraised pots for 100bbs at all, too often you're up against a huge hand that has you crushed.
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You reasoned with me. Its an Ev- move. His play was great because they folded. Id love to see people alter the results then say what happened, it would change everything completely around.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
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aw shit i just realized i included tha fact that mp2 folded, sorry about that guys. i always try to leave out the results
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by aislephive
RJG, seriously stfu man.
Gabe, I think this play is marginal and probably neutral in EV at best. Given his stack and the fact that you still should have a fair amount of fold equity I don't think in this instance that it's bad at all. But let's say he had 2k in front and he had bet out, then you raised and then he 3 bets, I think a 4 bet ai there would be bad. He hasn't shown a whole lot of strength in this hand though so I think it's a fine play. Beware though, especially in unraised pots when somebody shows a lot of strength, it generally means a huge hand, especially in FR. I'm sure you're quite aware of this, just something to keep in mind. I don't like to push combo draws in unraised pots for 100bbs at all, too often you're up against a huge hand that has you crushed.
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right, i think if he had 100bb i might have just called and check folded the turn or even folded the flop
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Iwind
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Norway
Posts: 436
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You should start liking them, cause they are very important, how you play your draws is very important at higher stakes.
About the hand, I like it, MP2s raise look weak, I think a set or a weak flush would raise more. And people don't like going broke without the nuts or a Very strong hand in unraised pots, so you got lots of folding equity. I'm not getting it all in here with a weak flush at least, and not bottom set or two pair either, unless you have a maniac image.
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Pingviini
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 1,090
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Iwind
I'm not getting it all in here with a weak flush at least, and not bottom set or two pair either, unless you have a maniac image. |
No wonder I suck in FR..
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sandstorm
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 573
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rip, can i just ask three questions?
1. how old are you
2. where do you come from
3. how long have you been playing?
just wondering
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>3
this is my favourite part of the post
it looks like angry boobs
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by swiggidy
High stakes forum is an interesting read but I"m expecting a post tomorrow where you try this and complain about it not working.
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Close enough? What were the odds on this 1:100?
{EDIT: Big X removed RIP's HH}
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AAnalTTorture
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don't worry gotti, you're not the only person on this site who sucks dick at poker
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Ziluminor
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 5
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I think the bottom line here is that mp's raise looks weak when you have a strong board a weak raise is just that so the reraise is perfectly fine i think human nature is important here if mp had a great hand he sure as hell wouldn't make a weak raise into a strong board and well to be honest if he did make a weak raise he is a great player and after you reraise i think he will let you know your beat when he re-re raises in this case weak raise into strong board means weak hand.. rip consequently is trying, but i will point out that although he is intelligent he will never be a high limit player his thinking just does not extend into to the realm that is necessary to be a high limit player
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