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You know you're behind, but...

  
 
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Warpe
Old 03-20-2006, 09:50 AM     Post subject: You know you're behind, but... #1 (permalink)  
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No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
10 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $45.65
UTG+1: $19.50
Hero: $70.75
MP1: $25.43
MP2: $20.75
MP3: $133.19
CO: $10
Button: $13.55
SB: $31.85
BB: $26.55

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is UTG+2 with Q Q
2 folds, Hero raises to $2, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $2, 5 folds.

Flop: 4 Q A ($4.75, 2 players)
Hero bets $5, MP2 calls $5.

Turn: J ($14.75, 2 players)
Hero ????



 
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midas06
Old 03-20-2006, 09:58 AM #2 (permalink)  
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May I suggest a concept that ElipsesJeff brought up in LHE the other day?

Make a ~$6 blocking bet, so that either:

a) you get a cheap river

or

b) if you do get raised, you might have odds to call to fill up with all the dead money in the pot.

Thoughts?
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Warpe
Old 03-20-2006, 10:14 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midas06
Make a ~$6 blocking bet
I made it $5. I didn't want to appear to be slowing down but wanted to keep the price down as well. Just curious if others would do the same. Results as follows:

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is UTG+2 with Q Q
2 folds, Hero raises to $2, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $2, 5 folds.

Flop: 4 Q A ($4.75, 2 players)
Hero bets $5, MP2 calls $5.

Turn: J ($14.75, 2 players)
Hero bets $5, MP2 calls $5.

River: A ($24.75, 2 players)
Hero bets $10, MP2 calls all-in $8.75.
Uncalled bets: $1.25 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: $42.25
Hero shows Qd Qh
MP2 doesn't show Kc 6c

Me sucky sucky



 
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mxiu
Old 03-20-2006, 10:47 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midas06
May I suggest a concept that ElipsesJeff brought up in LHE the other day?

Make a ~$6 blocking bet, so that either:

a) you get a cheap river

or

b) if you do get raised, you might have odds to call to fill up with all the dead money in the pot.

Thoughts?
What an awesome concept. I like it.
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THaC
Old 03-20-2006, 11:05 AM #5 (permalink)  
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I love a turn blocking bet here... I like the way you played it Warpe, probably would play it the exact same.
 
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midas06
Old 03-20-2006, 11:22 AM #6 (permalink)  
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The problem with making it $5 is that it looks so weak to bet the same as you did on the previous street, and a slightly aware villain will raise with any 2 there
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krimson
Old 03-20-2006, 11:56 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midas06
May I suggest a concept that ElipsesJeff brought up in LHE the other day?

Make a ~$6 blocking bet, so that either:

a) you get a cheap river

or

b) if you do get raised, you might have odds to call to fill up with all the dead money in the pot.

Thoughts?
In my view the point of a blocking bet is that if you get raised you know you are beat and can cut your losses. I think it's generally a bad idea to make a blocking bet when you have a strong draw: if you are faced with a raise that only just gives you odds to call (i.e. such that folding has about the same EV) then your draw has essentially lost all hand value (since it doesn't matter what hand you fold with incorrect pot odds). In such a spot you are better off either betting big to get some fold equity, or checking and calling a bet depending on pot odds (costs less, and may have implied odds).
In the posted hand hero can only beat a bluff without improvement. A blocking bet will not achieve a cheap showdown against a worse hand, and has little fold equity. On the turn there is $15 in the pot, and villain has $13 left. If hero makes any bet > $4.50 he has pot odds to call a push from villain. In other words if villain has a flush and raises the turn then the EV of a blocking bet is about -$4.50. Essentially the only situation where the blocking bet is better than checking and calling depending on pot odds is if villain smooth-calls the bet (as happened) and would have made a larger bet himself if checked to. Even then it is only very slightly ahead of check/folding (maybe $0.50?), unless of course villain bluffs big.
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Warpe
Old 03-20-2006, 02:35 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krimson
In my view the point of a blocking bet is that if you get raised you know you are beat and can cut your losses. I think it's generally a bad idea to make a blocking bet when you have a strong draw: if you are faced with a raise that only just gives you odds to call (i.e. such that folding has about the same EV) then your draw has essentially lost all hand value (since it doesn't matter what hand you fold with incorrect pot odds). In such a spot you are better off either betting big to get some fold equity, or checking and calling a bet depending on pot odds (costs less, and may have implied odds).
In the posted hand hero can only beat a bluff without improvement. A blocking bet will not achieve a cheap showdown against a worse hand, and has little fold equity. On the turn there is $15 in the pot, and villain has $13 left. If hero makes any bet > $4.50 he has pot odds to call a push from villain. In other words if villain has a flush and raises the turn then the EV of a blocking bet is about -$4.50. Essentially the only situation where the blocking bet is better than checking and calling depending on pot odds is if villain smooth-calls the bet (as happened) and would have made a larger bet himself if checked to. Even then it is only very slightly ahead of check/folding (maybe $0.50?), unless of course villain bluffs big.
Actually, I think this hand is more of an example of bad play by villain (playing with less than a full buy-in being a big part of it) than a good illustration of a blocking bet. In his shoes, I would've either raised on the flop and put the rest in on the turn, or just pushed the turn. (Thoughts here? What's villain's best line?)

Obviously, a fourth club was the last thing I wanted to see, since villain's smooth call on the flop had put him on the flush draw for me. I made the turn bet I did to price my next card, with the hope that he'd smooth call again and, thankfully, he cooperated. If he'd had more money behind, I'm sure he could've forced a fold from me.



 
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 03-20-2006, 05:41 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 I feel like a check here would probably produce less a bet from the villan than your blocking bet, since u clearly wouldn't have the flush in his mind.
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freechus9
Old 03-20-2006, 07:38 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Why cant we just push this turn? The fourth club may give you some fold equity. The villain doesn't HAVE to have a club on the flop..he's a donk who buys in for half the max, right? So why can't he have AQ or some other ace? A push on the turn gives you some FE and a chance to fill up on the river if he calls.
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Warpe
Old 03-20-2006, 07:47 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freechus9
Why cant we just push this turn? The fourth club may give you some fold equity. The villain doesn't HAVE to have a club on the flop..he's a donk who buys in for half the max, right? So why can't he have AQ or some other ace? A push on the turn gives you some FE and a chance to fill up on the river if he calls.
Flop: 4 Q A ($4.75, 2 players)
Hero bets $5, MP2 calls $5.

No way he's calling this without a club in his hand.



 
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Lukie
Old 03-20-2006, 08:00 PM #12 (permalink)  
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 I don't really understand the turn bet at all against such a short stack....
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Warpe
Old 03-20-2006, 08:08 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
I don't really understand the turn bet at all against such a short stack....
Check? Or push him a/i?



 
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midas06
Old 03-20-2006, 08:09 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Bleh, didn't see stack sizes. Just assume 100bb stacks etc etc
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nutsinho
Old 03-21-2006, 04:53 PM #15 (permalink)  
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 You guys, jeff is wrong about that concept. Don't use it...it's wrong....so wrong...
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Fnord
Old 03-21-2006, 05:16 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
I don't really understand the turn bet at all against such a short stack....
Check? Or push him a/i?
Check
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Pelion
Old 03-21-2006, 05:22 PM #17 (permalink)  
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This kind of blocking bet isnt to see a cheap showdown when you might still be ahead. Its to see a cheap river when you know you are behind and you know he will pay off if you hit (so he needs to have a decent stack). It will only work against weak players who try to be sneaky and think they will get more in the pot by slowplaying.
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