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spoonitnow
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05-17-2008, 01:50 AM
Post subject: Winrate w/o showdown
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Right now I'm around -1 ptbb/100 in non showdown pots.
Is that good/bad/other?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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aka_red
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: house
Posts: 903
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+0.47 ptbb/100
SHIPITHOLLABALLA.
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[11:11] <+bikes> bitches love your face
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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words cannot describe my hatred for ev software. it doesn't do shit to calculate ev, and barely does shit to show how you're playing unless you use it for filter purposes, but then its no better than PT.
if you notice my green line continues to go lower and lower relative to my blue line. this is simply a product of how i play and how my opponents play. overall, when i put a lot of money in the pot i either fold because i read souls or my draw didn't come in or see a showdown with the best of it. this is going to over time make my green line get lower and lower relative to blue line and i believe my blue line higher relative to red line. when my draws dont come in im usually folding, but when they do im usually seeing a showdown. this will then make it look like im running good according to sklansky bux yet playing bad in non-showdown pots.
imo its probably just how youre running. the games in which people are wining in non-showdown pots are games where there's enough stack bluffing to account for this. this is because when they dont get called this win a huge non-showdown pot, yet when they do get called they lose a big showdown pot, not a non-showdown pot.
i need to vow to never use this garbage software again.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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why the edit erik?
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aka_red
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: house
Posts: 903
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spoodle told me my math was wrong and that that was the right one
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[11:11] <+bikes> bitches love your face
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Keilah
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Northern BC, Canada
Posts: 658
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yah i expect $won at showdown to be waaaay higher than without, as if you're a good player you'll be showing down often enough to be turning a tidy profit there, and obv. every time you fold a losing hand you just 'lost a hand without showdown' but you (hopefully) made the correct play. PT etc doesn't know that, though.
I'd imagine real LAG players would come closer to equal on the showdown/without showdown $ graph.
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Deanglow
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: lol
Posts: 2,443
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Yeah my won w/o showdown is also in the negative, but I'm really working hard to get it up. I was inspired by a graph on a two plus two; the guy was down 10 buyins in expectation but was actually up 10 because of his won w/o showdown.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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wufwugy, this has nothing to do with PokerEV.
keliah, no shit.
Deanglow, thanks for the good response. Any chance we can get a link to that?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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I posted mine the other day for you to look at.
im -3bbs/100 at w/o showdown over 80k hands
But my game plan is weak/tight in 100nl fr games because i feel you can kill then playing that style as too many players cant even play ABC decent yet
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jimmy44
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Place where I can spew
Posts: 1,391
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I'm about 0.18bb/100
BTW, how did you calculate this?
I used the PT filters and removed the BB/100 of the "Folded before showdow" from the "Won without showdown". Did I do something wrong?
I play on Ongame and pokerEV doesn't cover it.
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Taxi
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Lincoln, UK
Posts: 226
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
wufwugy, this has nothing to do with PokerEV.
keliah, no shit.
Deanglow, thanks for the good response. Any chance we can get a link to that?
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This one? Not sure, but its my favouritest graph ever, kotkis from 2+2 - link: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=3187
post #26, check out Fabians on post #25 too, although he's not running so bad.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wufwugy
words cannot describe my hatred for ev software. it doesn't do shit to calculate ev, and barely does shit to show how you're playing unless you use it for filter purposes, but then its no better than PT.
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The filter system in PokerEV is like a million times better than Poker Tracker.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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pokerev is applicable here. it helps to illustrate my point, and its the origin or the won without showdown jazz. i also typed up another huge post but deleted it because there's just so many factors involved that give results and i cant cover most of them.
a high won without showdown doesn't mean higher wr. kotkis' graph isn't as impressive as everybody thinks. im not denying he's an excellent player, but i am denying the weird idea everybody has that its somehow better than having a high won at showdown. he sacrifices a won at showdown for won without showdown. as to what is better, we do not know.
he says he thinks its because he value bets super thin and has a super high wsf. okay. i have at least as high a wsf as anybody at ssnlfr and value bet at least as thinly, probably higher on both, but i dont see these results. its simply a matter play style of me and my opponents. on the flip side, i have a super high won at showdown. this keeps me from being able to have much of a won without showdown.
also the filtering in PT and pokerev are entirely different. PT filters mainly for pf stuff while pokerev filters for specific postflop situations or hand types. PT does that sorta in a roundabout way if you use the game notes tab, but you kinda gotta use it daily to figure that stuff out. i find zero use for pokerev filters since i go over my trouble hands after each session, this basically covers most of the hands that i would get via filtering with pokerev. PT on the other hand filters for pf very well, which can be used see how youre doing with what from where and played how. this is extremely valuable since it lays the foundation for everything. you could be a playing an entire type of hand from a certain position in a certain way and losing with them overall and never ever know it if you dont look at it from PT filters. i do not believe that pokerev does this, and what it does is more in the lines of what we see in HH forums and people just trying to figure out tough postflop spots in isolation. pokerev filters to find those hands, PT filters to show you how you're doing with certain hole cards.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Umm, ok....? Nice rant or whatever that was supposed to be, but let's get back to my question.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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I'm +3.1 w/o showdown and -1.6 at showdown.
I am, of course, a shortstacking ratholing fucksticking bastard. People respond to this by nutcamping me. It stands to reason that when my shoves are called, it'll tend to be by a better hand. However, they fold far more often.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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thats a weird way to short stack
and spoon, why you in a bad mood pookie?
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wufwugy
thats a weird way to short stack
and spoon, why you in a bad mood pookie?
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I'm not, you're just way off track and I feel like you're looking for an excuse to rant about PokerEV.
A better discussion would be about the balance of non-showdown pots vs showdown pots and why 6-max players have a lot different distribution of those than FR players.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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