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Why not to get greedy with the "nut flush"

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Theeggman

05-06-2005, 05:39 PM Post subject: Why not to get greedy with the "nut flush"

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: SoCal

Posts: 363

***** Hand History for Game 1975128193 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Saturday, April 30, 01:13:11 EDT 2005
Table Table 36915 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: JDMcNooghet ( $35.3 )
Seat 2: chuckjbar ( $27.27 )
Seat 3: hafwaythere1 ( $33.5 )
Seat 4: tennacvol ( $18.15 )
Seat 6: theeggman ( $29.05 )
theeggman posts small blind [$0.1].
JDMcNooghet posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to theeggman [ 9s Js ]
chuckjbar folds.
hafwaythere1 folds.
tennacvol calls [$0.25].
theeggman calls [$0.15]. *okay I’ll play for a bargain*
JDMcNooghet raises [$0.75]. *so much for a bargain*
tennacvol folds.
theeggman calls [$0.75]. *okay I’ll play*
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8s, 3s, 7s ] *flopped a flush*
theeggman checks. *let’s see where he’s at*
JDMcNooghet checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ts ] *my wife: you've got a straight flush. me: finally*
theeggman bets [$1]. *gotta bet this*
JDMcNooghet raises [$2]. *me likey*
theeggman raises [$2]. *raise war, please don’t have Js9s...wait*
JDMcNooghet raises [$8]. *oh, you’ve got the nut flush*
theeggman calls [$7]. *why press the issue?*
** Dealing River ** [ 5d ] *good, no boat possibilities*
theeggman bets [$5]. *please mr. shark, don’t hurt me*
JDMcNooghet is all-In. *me likey even mo*
theeggman is all-In. *you’re gonna regret this*
theeggman shows [ 9s, Js ] a straight flush, jack high.
JDMcNooghet shows [ As, Kh ] a flush, ace high.
JDMcNooghet wins $6.25 from side pot #1 with a flush, ace high.
theeggman wins $56.35 from the main pot with a straight flush, jack high.

Moral of the story: he could have saved half his stack by being wary of the SF. Not complaining tho.

Thoughts? I like to underbet the river with the nuts against aggressive opps because it usually enduces a large raise (but I have been shortchanged too).

I'll be a rootin' tootin' shootin' damn fool, protectin' my chips.

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dalecooper

05-06-2005, 05:54 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 3,107

I don't mind his all-in actually. He has the second nuts, and it takes one of two very specific hands (Js 9s or 6s 9s) to beat him. If he gets all his money in there, most of the time he'll win - so why not maximize your long term profit by taking that extra risk? Usually he'll be called by someone with the king of spades, not by the straight flush.

ChezJ

05-06-2005, 06:06 PM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Washington, D.C.

Posts: 1,456

ChezJ is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

** Dealing River ** [ 5d ] *good, no boat possibilities*

what does this mean?? don't you WANT him to fill up against your str8flush?

Fnord

05-06-2005, 06:25 PM

#4 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

This post has some seriously flawed thinking...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Theeggman

05-06-2005, 06:28 PM

#5 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: SoCal

Posts: 363

That means that if the board paired he might be hesitant to go ai w/a flush against a possible FH.

I'll be a rootin' tootin' shootin' damn fool, protectin' my chips.

Theeggman

05-06-2005, 06:29 PM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: SoCal

Posts: 363

Quote:

Originally Posted by fnord

This post has some seriously flawed thinking...

Help me out here fnord.

I'll be a rootin' tootin' shootin' damn fool, protectin' my chips.

drmcboy

05-06-2005, 06:31 PM

#7 (permalink)

DrButtInski
Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 9,603

what does this mean?? don't you WANT him to fill up against your str8flush?

I would guess he's happy that dude (who must
have the flush) won't be scared that he had a set and has filled up - now he has to lose pretty much his whole stack.

Also I agree that long term you're losing money fearing the str8 flush except in very special circumstances... some one posted here the other day when they had AKs, flopped the flush, a fourth comes out, str8 flush is possible, and they were getting re raised - Q was on the board, so the guy correctly guessed that his opp had to have the str8 flush. But unless you have all that info (top 3 flush cards accounted for) I think I'm paying this off most of the tme. Here the way you played it he could easily put you on a Ksuited hand.

vnh BTW. Had to be tempting to bet more on the river, but you made the right read and got paid.

dsaxton

05-06-2005, 06:43 PM

#8 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Arlington, VA

Posts: 2,667

Your hand is vulnerable on the flop and you probably should've bet. If any other spade had fallen you would've lost the pot to the Q, K or A or spades (likely cards for him to be holding after his preflop raise).

Why not keep reraising on the turn to get him all-in there? It was obvious he had the nut flush, so there's really no reason to slow-play.

Theeggman

05-06-2005, 08:10 PM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: SoCal

Posts: 363

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalecooper

I don't mind his all-in actually. He has the second nuts, and it takes one of two very specific hands (Js 9s or 6s 9s) to beat him. If he gets all his money in there, most of the time he'll win

I guess you're right. On the long-term it would be too weak to fear the SF unless it was a situation like drmcboy mentioned. But only because too many times you will see 2nd 3rd and 4th nuts battling for the top flush, right? Against aware players people might lay their nut flush down with a read to that specific hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

In hindsight, you're right. Thanks for pointing that out. I would've had to lay down to his aggression if anything other than the Tc came out. Who knows though, he may have still called a pot sized bet HU with a nut flush draw and a gutshot str8 draw.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Why not keep reraising on the turn to get him all-in there? It was obvious he had the nut flush, so there's really no reason to slow-play.

With his big reraise there I thought a call was best with 5th street still to come. I had the absolute nuts and I didn't want to make him suspicious at all.

I'll be a rootin' tootin' shootin' damn fool, protectin' my chips.

dalecooper

05-06-2005, 08:16 PM

#10 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 3,107

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theeggman

With his big reraise there I thought a call was best with 5th street still to come. I had the absolute nuts and I didn't want to make him suspicious at all.

I'd tend to go the other way, keep raising him a little bit until he calls or folds. You do have the nuts which is great, but then you'll be first to act on the river, which puts you in the awkward position of having to lead out. If he feels he's vulnerable in any way, he may just call your bet on the river, where he was more clearly willing to go all-in on the turn. Imagine the board pairing on the river and you lead out; now he's afraid and may flat call, and you don't maximize your profit. It's a bit different if he's first to act; you can see if he bets & what he bets, and then raise enough to put him all in - which he'll feel obligated to call more than likely, no matter what the last card was.

Theeggman

05-06-2005, 08:35 PM

#11 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: SoCal

Posts: 363

Very good point about the position. Thinking about it now, I have been put in that spot (1st to act on river with the best hand) and throw out a weak bet that I think will get raised and then regret doing it when my opp just calls.

Mainly, I did not want him to fold though. Granted he probably would have called an all-in after his turn reraise, but I definitely didn't want to scare him off his flush - also, if the board had paired on the river I would have regretted not pushing on the turn because he may have folded to a large river bet.

I'll be a rootin' tootin' shootin' damn fool, protectin' my chips.

dalecooper

05-06-2005, 08:48 PM

#12 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 3,107

Right. And that's something you only figure out through long experience. Just today I missed an opportunity in a similar situation... playing JT of hearts, I flopped Ah Qh Td. GREAT flop... someone else led weakly, and two of us called. Turn was the Kc, giving me the nut straight plus my flush draw + royal draw. Same guy led out small, the second player raised. I flat-called as did the original bettor. Looking back, that was a missed opportunity; I should have raised (at least min-raised) right there to get more money in the pot. I knew the raiser had a jack and I was at worst going to chop the pot, so why not get him to put more money in and increase my profit on the hand if I hit my flush? River ended up being a blank and we chopped, so it didn't matter this time, but that's a mistake in thinking that I won't make next time it comes up. If I had hit my flush, he probably would have just called my first bet or even folded, and I wouldn't have made the maximum amount possible on the hand.

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Why not to get greedy with the "nut flush"

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