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bigslikk

04-13-2008, 08:40 PM Post subject: Why I hate flopping the nuts...

#1 (permalink)

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Join Date: Apr 2006

Location: Chicago

Posts: 445

...because the average table at 2NL on PokerStars is a rock garden, and I know I won't get paid ever.

I don't know if anyone plays at .01/.02 ring on stars anymore (it's the absolute bottom-of-the-barrel, I doubt there are lower stakes anywhere), but it is not the magical free-money grab that everyone thinks it is. Here, hardly anyone:

-stacks of with top pair, or anything for that matter
-bluffs ever
-raises preflop
-calls raises preflop without premiums

Instead, the rocks at stars (a third to half of the players I encounter are multi-tablers hilariously, and I know this because I multi-table and we're together on every table) do the following things:

-fold it around to the BB once or twice per orbit
-will fold to a 3x steal from the button almost every time
-fold to most c-bets
-SLOWPLAY EVERYTHING, including top pair. They check /call every hand of value.
-go for check / raises with monsters on the river 90% of the time
-insta-shove 100BB into a nothing pot while holding up a sign that says "I have the current nuts."
-play absolutely, 100%, by-the- (Harrington) book, unimaginitive, tight-as-a-tampon poker.

When I first began multi-tabling at 2 NL, I followed the traditional advice for beating this alleged "donkfest" (I only fantasize about donkfests nowadays). I played very TAG, very positionally aware poker, with an extremely wide range on the button (anything with good draw potential). Never open-limped, raised 4xbb (+1 bb for every limper) every time I opened. Re-raised 3-4x the original raise every time I did so. Never bluffed (don't bluff a donk-station, right?). Bet 2/3 - full pot when I had a solid holding, semi-bluffed great draws, cbet good boards in HU pots... basically, the most solid abc poker I could do. I basically value bet the BEJESUS out of everything.

My misson statement was ABC poker.

Surprisingly, on all of the tables I played at (in which players raise so infrequently it's frightening... I know this because I was never calling raises ever- there were none to call- and everytime I had a good hand I was openng regardless of where I was on the table) I became the table captain. That's right, table captain on all 8 tables I was playing. It was a joke, stealing pot after pot (3 cents, hurray?) until someone woke up. Whenver I had AQ+, or JJ+, I would make a standard 4x (or sometimes 3x to get action) raise, to have it folded around. I was baffled that everyone was so tight, but continued the plan.

Well, I've been making steady profits, but damn, we're talking about squeezing blood out of the rocks at the bottom of bottom of microstakes. Recently, I've been experimenting with LAG poker on a few of the 8 tables I normally play (roflmao, mult-table LAG poker at the donstakes, must be suicide right?). Surprisingly, it's been pretty successful.

Yup, small-ball LAG poker is the counter to a rock-garden table. I raise it up from the button with any two, and take it down. Reraise from in position with any two (I do this more rarely, you got to respect the hell out of these nits' raises).

-Call a raise / or raise with crap in position, knowing I can likely take it down on the flop with a fake "thinking" timing-tell and a 1/2 pot stab.

-Semi-bluff. It's almost sad when I flop the nut flush draw because I never get to see if it completes or not (FE is that good here).

-two-barrel if they float on the right board. Also surprisingly successful, and bigger pots.

-most important: shut down if I face resistance. Any raise anywhere (rare) is taken very seriously. If they call a sizeable bet on the flop, (perhaps quickly check the turn), I assign a good chance that the nit is "trapping" me with TPGK or some monster. I mean, these players sometimes forget to raise the stone cold nuts in position on the river they are so fearful, so action from them means business.

So, in conclusion, 2 NL is not your typical "fish-in-a-barrel and I have a shotgun" type game that we all kill and joke about. 2 NL stars is full of fearful nits who have watched too much televised poker and read to many poker books and now play tight, squeamish poker (I "tested" many tables last night, many knew famous poker players, and what the acronym TAG meant... dear god where have the lovable donks gone?).

Also, there are TONS of multi-tablers on stars (their avatars are everywhere). I have bluffed multi-tabling woody woodpecker, some hot asian babe, and some guy smoking weed hundreds of times, very successfully. It's hilarious actually. You know someone is multi-tabling, and therefore has no awareness / reads whatsoever. I bluff the HELL out of them. If we make it to a flop, I bet. I can just imagine the multi-tabling villain... hmmm he bet, I have nothing, fold. Roflmao. The best was at one table where 4-5 where multi-tablers (much higher than usual). I took 7 pots in a row uncontested preflop. I typed in "is anyone here NOT a multi-tabler?" and got one response. I said "bluff woody woodpecker, he's a multi-tabler!" (I know this is dubious, and what should I care... but I wanted to see if he was even paying attention). No response. After I took like 6-7 pots preflop uncontested (in a row), I typed "c'mon guys I'm raising any two, play back for crissakes!". Only the one guy responded, with a "lol" or something. Multi-tabling rock garden indeed.

So, basically, I'm lamenting the death of your average, lovable, always welcome, microstakes donkey. O to where hath all the donks absconded? And how sad is it that I have to resort to 8-table LAG poker just to grind out a few quarters an hour? I'm making money, but it's not too fun.

So, whenever I flop the nuts, or get dealt aces preflop, I just sigh. It might as well be air.

/rant.

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swiggidy

04-13-2008, 09:44 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Ummm, I was like "O RLY" so I pulled up stars

I'm calling bullshit. I can't even say table selection, because 100% in this window have over 30% to the flop and half of them have average pots over 20bbs.

I stopped reading, but it's possible your problem is pulling moves. You can't bet into weakness because weakness doesn't mean anything. If you're playing 2 tables or something you're probably just bored out of your mind waiting for good cards which is what you need to do.

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kmind

04-13-2008, 09:52 PM

#3 (permalink)

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I haven't really read the original post but why did you post a bunch of 6max tables, swiggidy?

swiggidy

04-13-2008, 09:54 PM

#4 (permalink)

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TABLE SELECTION YO!!

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JinxT4

04-13-2008, 09:56 PM Post subject: Re: Why I hate flopping the nuts...

#5 (permalink)

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Join Date: Feb 2007

Posts: 265

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigslikk

What kinda 2NL tables are you playing at? I just can't see how 2NL could possibly be the way you describe it imo. Especially the above parts about no one stacking off with tp & calling without premiums.

I'm gonna have to agree with swiggidy here (even though his screenshot is for 6max tables & not full ring).

Maybe you're just running bad? That seems like the only reason someone would really "hate flopping the nuts." I'm sure in time you'll be back to loving flopping the nuts when your 2NL opponents pay you off all-in on the flop drawing dead. =)

aka_red

04-13-2008, 11:58 PM

#6 (permalink)

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i hate to be like this but maybe you just suck.
but if your this unhpapy I not that you should would play at higher stakes the only time i ever played pennystakes was to play with my friend who is awful. i would prolly jsut move up to the next level if your a wininng player coz penystakes r dumb.

[11:11] <+bikes> bitches love your face

Liam^

04-14-2008, 12:03 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Join Date: May 2007

Posts: 106

I dunno about 2nl, but 5nl is the opposite. I get paid off all the damn time. If I buy in for $5 people are always more than happy to call my pushes. I think its because microstakes players are crazy about not being bluffed. So many do try it to be fair, and I just take advantage.

d0zer

04-14-2008, 12:44 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 2,524

negative variance?

Over how many hands has bigslikk experienced 2NL being a 'rock garden'?

I find it just a little hard to believe that the villains at 2NL are tighter than those at 100NL...

givememyleg

04-14-2008, 12:57 AM

#9 (permalink)

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i dont think i have ever said "man i hate flopping the nuts" in fact i enjoy it, like a lot

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d0zer

04-14-2008, 01:06 AM

#10 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by givememyleg

i dont think i have ever said "man i hate flopping the nuts" in fact i enjoy it, like a lot

I flopped nut flush today with an AJs I completed in the SB after 4 limpers. Even though I only got one of em' along for 2 streets of betting I still enjoyed it

It's better than say, when I open raise with A2s in the Co & get 3-bet by a nit in the blinds

Vrax

04-14-2008, 01:13 AM

#11 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2005

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Posts: 632

Yeah, the games aren't like they were in 2005 anymore - unless you play on Boss Network or something.

Quote:

-play absolutely, 100%, by-the- (Harrington) book, unimaginitive, tight-as-a-tampon poker.

Actually, the Harrington's book HAS some dirty tricks described, that can be a real puke inducer even for good tags. But those tricks must be well-timed and well-thought and I don't think 2NLers are aware enough to find those spots.

Adjustments:

Quote:

-doesn't stack off with top pair, or anything for that matter

Incorporate some multistreet bluffs, especially 2nd barrels in raised pot - they create the big destack threat with relative little money invested.

Float them on low coordinated board from time to time (if they don't know stack-a-donk lines)

Donkbet some 3-way or even 4-way low flops, because big part of nit's range will be unimproved overs, and they will give you a big respect when you lead OOP at PFR'er.

Quote:

-doesn't bluff ever

Don't re-play if they play back (you know those fancy cibs with air and 4bets preflop with big Ace etc. - they go out of the window)

Get ready to lay down fairly big hands like overpairs and TP's

Quote:

-very rarely raises preflop

Don't get involved in the hand PF without the goods (goods=AK, QQ+). Attack them from late position if they limp, however.

Don't hang yourself with light 3betting them with big cards.

Quote:

-doesn't calls raises preflop without premiums

What's your definition of "premiums"? I mean, what's their cold call range PF?

Good ole c-bet is great way of exploiting them, because they won't continue if they don't hit and they won't float you. If they start to counter you by floating, then either switch to c/r flops (bluff or not) or stack-a-donk them with the best of your "bet/fold" hands. Wash, rinse, repeat.

edit: lol I just read your first post more thoroughly and it seems like you know exactly how to counter those players

Yeah, ic can look like you squeezing out tiny drops of juice from old, dried up lemons, but in terms of winrate it's probably slightly lower, than playing correctly vs calling stations.

Play g00t, it looks like you already know what to do

"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy

bigslikk

04-14-2008, 03:30 AM

#12 (permalink)

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Join Date: Apr 2006

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Quote:

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Ummm, I was like "O RLY" so I pulled up stars

I'm calling bullshit. I can't even say table selection, because 100% in this window have over 30% to the flop and half of them have average pots over 20bbs. .

Hey man, I only wish I were bullshitting you about this. I may be exaggerating a tad for the sake of clarity, but nothing that I wrote is a lie. I'm guessing that you know a lot more about poker than I do. Hell, I know that you do. But I'm not making this shit up.

Those average pots are misnomers, and in some cases blatantly false. First of all, my table selection is great- I go to tables with an average pot of $1 or close to it and as high % players to flop as possible. I have logged ~2000 hands at 2NL, and barring a few extremely rare jokers who are "slumming" 2 NL for a good laugh (and shoving preflop with crap), there are MANY MANY rocks down here. The reason for the high average pot? Perhaps some nit with the 2nd to nuts stacks off (a full $5 at this limit many times) to a nit with the nuts. Then, the average pot stays very high even though pots of .20 are entered again and again, and the average pot remains high. I just observed some PS tables a minute ago, bare pots again and again and again, and the lobby says the table's average pot is $1, never changing. Its just misinformation, perhaps taking into account a $5 pot that happened 100 hands ago along with a slew of .20 - .30 cent hands.

Another reason for "big pots" and "high % to flop,"- EVERYONE LIMPS. half the table limps in every hand, so while the pot seems to indicate action, it really just reflects a preflop loose-passiveness, and perhaps meaningless minbets on the flop that were called around.

Problem is, throw in a guy like me who likes to raise preflop (I am as rare as unicorn down here, my agression factor is astronomical), and the average pot (lets say the most common pot) will be 3 to 5 cents. % to flop will be bare.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiggidy

I stopped reading, but it's possible your problem is pulling moves. You can't bet into weakness because weakness doesn't mean anything. If you're playing 2 tables or something you're probably just bored out of your mind waiting for good cards which is what you need to do.

I know you stopped reading. The problem isn't pulling moves. I'm pulling them, and they're working, because I am facing rocks. I also mentioned that I'm playing 8 tables at once. Patience is hardly a concern. I wish I could somehow make a video of this shit w/ commentary, because 20 minutes at 2 NL would be enough to show you. As big of a waste of time it would be, I DEFY you to play some hands at 2 NL using abc poker and tell me you're not up against rocks. Here's a clue about table conditions: most players take a full 10 seconds to complete every move they make. Studious, patient, decision-weighing poker pros... or multi-tabling nits?

Quote:

Originally Posted by reDZill4

i hate to be like this but maybe you just suck.

I considered that, too, but I'm up 20 bucks, so I'm either lucky / skilled.

Quote:

Originally Posted by givememyleg

i dont think i have ever said "man i hate flopping the nuts" in fact i enjoy it, like a lot

Me too, except the part where the nits open fold into me after it happens.

Renton

04-14-2008, 05:53 AM

#13 (permalink)

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gl with moving up if you find 2nl to be a rock garden LOL

daven

04-14-2008, 05:55 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by givememyleg

i dont think i have ever said "man i hate flopping the nuts" in fact i enjoy it, like a lot

BankItDrew

04-14-2008, 06:37 AM

#15 (permalink)

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BankItDrew will become famous soon enough

this is obviously a joke thread

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bigslikk

04-14-2008, 07:14 AM

#16 (permalink)

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After having a big upswing today I have concluded that I was wrong. I can only say that whatever session caused me that much anguish must've been really bad. I got paid over and over again today. Maybe the later (10pm +) sessions are looser.

Da GOAT

04-14-2008, 07:49 AM

#17 (permalink)

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The chance this could possibly be a super level decreases alot by the amount of words in play.

Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.

Stacks

04-14-2008, 03:39 PM

#18 (permalink)

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I have to disagree. I'm logge a small sample of around 7k hands at 2NL and it's fairly loose still imo. In my experience at everyone FR table their will be 1 or 2 multitabling nits. I'm actually pretty certain the "weed smoking" guy you are talking about, name chrisc (something like that).

Anyways, you are 100% correct on the reasoning for big pots + high VPIP. I consistently see guys with 65/4, 70/8 stats at this level, so yes they limp like fucking crazy from any position at the table.

But them not stacking off with TPNK, and draws? Maybe a few don't, but the majority does so with a high frequency. You can ever find a few donks still that will stack off with middle pair, or on a 1 card left to come gutshot, or even better yet when they shove with total air.

Pythonic

04-14-2008, 08:06 PM

#19 (permalink)

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Try out 6max, they are even worse.

Never bet on a white man in the heavyweight division!

Fnord

04-14-2008, 09:05 PM

#20 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Pythonic

Try out 6max, they are even worse.

6max might be even easier to play because running goodish hands against a full table of loose flop prospectors can be fustrating. If you can isolate it down to only 2-4 other hands then you will be able to put their crap to the test. Also, it's harder for a rock to hide short-handed.

I played the .01/.02 6-max to see how it played. Had a blast. Great place to learn to play poker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

swiggidy

04-14-2008, 11:34 PM

#21 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bigslikk

Keep in mind in the future how ridiculously small a 2k hands sample is. It's very possible no one caught a piece of the flop when you have a hand, and they hit when you miss.

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