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Why I cant win at 50nl without the nuts

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Ugly Ed

03-03-2006, 11:27 AM Post subject: Why I cant win at 50nl without the nuts

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 116

If you were villian would you fold with no reads? If I were him it would be an easy fold. I'd like to get some feed back on these hands please. Maybe someone can see where I played them differently that made the difference.

Game #1324234094 - (blinds $0.25/$0.50) No Limit Texas Hold'em - 2006/03/03-06:14:16.2 (CST)
Table "Naso (5 max)" (real money) -- Seat 3 is the button
Seat 1: cartmenwu ($48.80 in chips)
Seat 2: masaradzhayn ($46.75 in chips)
Seat 3: imdamimi ($72.75 in chips)
Seat 4: gus h ($46.50 in chips)
Seat 5: Ugly Ed ($49.00 in chips)
gus h : Post Small Blind ($0.25)
Ugly Ed : Post Big Blind ($0.50)
Dealing...
Dealt to Ugly Ed [ Ts ]
Dealt to Ugly Ed [ Js ]
cartmenwu: Call ($0.50)
masaradzhayn: Call ($0.50)
imdamimi: Fold
gus h : Call ($0.25)
Ugly Ed : Check
*** FLOP *** : [ 8h 9c 3h ]
gus h : Check
Ugly Ed : Bet ($3)
cartmenwu: Fold
masaradzhayn: Raise ($6)
gus h : Fold
Ugly Ed : Call ($3)
*** TURN *** : [ 8h 9c 3h ] [ Qh ]
Ugly Ed : Bet ($20)
masaradzhayn: Call ($20)
*** RIVER *** : [ 8h 9c 3h Qh ] [ 7c ]
Ugly Ed : Bet ($22.50)
cartmenwu said, "ace high flush"
masaradzhayn: Call All-in ($20.25)
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $92.50 | Rake: $2
Board: [ 8h 9c 3h Qh 7c ]
cartmenwu lost $0.50 (folded)
masaradzhayn bet $46.75, collected $92.50, net +$45.75 (showed hand) [ 9h 4h ] (a flush, queen high)
imdamimi didn't bet (folded)
gus h lost $0.50 (folded)
Ugly Ed bet $49, collected $2.25, net -$46.75 (showed hand) [ Ts Js ] (a straight, eight to queen)

Heres a similar situation at 200nl. I know villian knows he dont have the nuts, cause I have the A.

Game #1318445574 - (blinds $1/$2) No Limit Texas Hold'em - 2006/02/28-16:45:45.5 (CST)
Table "Baluan" (real money) -- Seat 8 is the button
Seat 1: chipsformeok ($214.10 in chips)
Seat 2: TaTaTunes ($213.70 in chips)
Seat 3: ironkidsb ($325.75 in chips)
Seat 5: Ugly Ed ($247.75 in chips)
Seat 6: PiMp C ($161.05 in chips)
Seat 8: EddieWouldGo71 ($165.80 in chips)
Seat 9: Hollywood12 ($202.05 in chips)
Seat 10: EatAtDans ($199.10 in chips)
Hollywood12: Post Small Blind ($1)
EatAtDans: Post Big Blind ($2)
Dealing...
Dealt to Ugly Ed [ As ]
Dealt to Ugly Ed [ Tc ]
chipsformeok: Fold
TaTaTunes: Call ($2)
ironkidsb: Call ($2)
Ugly Ed : Call ($2)
PiMp C : Fold
EddieWouldGo71: Fold
Hollywood12: Fold
EatAtDans: Check
*** FLOP *** : [ Ks 2s 7s ]
EatAtDans: Check
TaTaTunes: Check
ironkidsb: Bet ($8)
Ugly Ed : Call ($8)
EatAtDans: Raise ($30)
TaTaTunes: Fold
ironkidsb: Fold
Ugly Ed : Call ($22)
*** TURN *** : [ Ks 2s 7s ] [ Jh ]
EatAtDans: Bet ($50)
Ugly Ed : Raise ($215.75)
EatAtDans: Fold
Ugly Ed : Winner -- doesn't show cards
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $174 | Rake: $3
Board: [ Ks 2s 7s Jh ]
chipsformeok didn't bet (folded)
TaTaTunes lost $2 (folded)
ironkidsb lost $10 (folded)
Ugly Ed bet $247.75, collected $339.75, net +$92 [ As Tc ] (high card ace)
PiMp C didn't bet (folded)
EddieWouldGo71 didn't bet (folded)
Hollywood12 lost $1 (folded)
EatAtDans lost $82 (folded)

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AHiltz

03-03-2006, 11:57 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Coldbrook, NS

Posts: 1,589

Hand #2, you are in a not so great position, and you call with an unsuited AT. Why? You would be better off raising then cold calling here. You have a weak hand in a weak position. Either raise or fold unless you feel you can outplay anyone at the table post flop.

Ugly Ed

03-03-2006, 12:08 PM

#3 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 116

Quote:

Hand #2, you are in a not so great position, and you call with an unsuited AT. Why?

Basically I'll limp in with ATo or less if I can. Which is what I did. Then hope to hit a set or 2 pair. If I just hit 1 A on the flop. I'll usually take a stab at it. Then let it go if I meet to much resistance. I wont usually raise with it, cause I dont feel that ATo or lower is really that great of a hand. After the 3 spades hit with 1 being the K and I have the A. I figured if I didnt hit another spade I could probably take the pot anyway. Which I did. At 50nl I would have never tried a play like that.

Fnord

03-03-2006, 04:02 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Hand 2:

Pre-flop is fine.
I think I just let this go at some point post-flop. It's a nothing pot, so I'm not comfortable spewing all over it when we would hit on a super-scary board.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

bdawg56kg

03-03-2006, 05:05 PM

#5 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Honolulu

Posts: 1,201

Hand 1. Be VERY careful when chasing OESD's on a 2-tone board, for exact reasons like this hand. You think you have an 8-outer, but in reality you have to treat it like a 6-outer. I would just c/c this flop and once the Qh hits, look to showdown cheap or dump it to big bets.

Hand 2. This whole hand was ugly. You REALLY need good reads to pull off a play like this. Just saying, oh it's 200NL so these guys must be capable of bluffing and being bluffed, is worthless. Preflop, meh. On the flop I raise or fold, and once the guy CR's, it's an easy fold. Sure you're drawing to the nuts, but you have close to no implied odds. Who will pay you off if you hit your nut flush? Look at it this way: on the flop you don't have the pot odds to chase, and you have almost no implied odds. The only thing going for you is you have position, but in this case it doesn't make up for your lack of odds. Without a read, I think the turn push is very -EV.

Miffed22001

03-03-2006, 07:05 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!

Posts: 8,181

hand 1 is the easiest call in the world for opp imo
id go bust there too, but then id be raising 94s to start with anyway

Ugly Ed

03-04-2006, 01:08 AM

#7 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 116

Quote:

hand 1 is the easiest call in the world for opp imo
id go bust there too, but then id be raising 94s to start with anyway

Really? Easy call and you would raise? Wow. Good chance I would have folded on the flop with that hand. No way I would raise. I cant see how he could possible think his hand would be good even it he hits his flush. I see alot of people that play any 2 cards suited and hope for the flush, but most of the time I eventually see then go bust to a higher flush. I have done it a few times to people like that myself. I was at a table with a guy like that. I saw him beat a few str8s sets with garbage flushes. I was dealt AQs. Hit my Q and 2 of the other suited cards on the flop. Which is a great possition to be in. TPTK plus nut flush draw. I destacked him that hand for about 150$. I would like to know how if you were villian in that hand you would know your flush would be good? Is it something in the amounts that I bet? Or is it just the fact that you have a flush you stay in? Then you will go bust everytime you make a flush and lose to a higher flush, cause over time you will be ahead?

I had the other guy at the table convinced I had the nut flush. He said something like "A high flush"

Quote:

Hand 2. This whole hand was ugly. You REALLY need good reads to pull off a play like this. Just saying, oh it's 200NL so these guys must be capable of bluffing and being bluffed, is worthless. Preflop, meh. On the flop I raise or fold, and once the guy CR's, it's an easy fold. Sure you're drawing to the nuts, but you have close to no implied odds. Who will pay you off if you hit your nut flush?

I did have a pretty good read on him. Well I knew he either bluffed or would fold down if he didnt have the nuts. I had seen him make pretty good sized bets, then let the pot go after being reraised a large amount. If I hit the nut flush on the turn I am sure he would have paid me pretty good. He had bet 30$ on the flop without the nuts. Then 50$ on the turn. If I would have hit the flush on the turn I would have just called. He would now have 130$ left. Now on the river if I had just checked the turn he will most likely bet atleast another 50$. That puts him at 80$ or less. He is pretty much pot comitted. So then I put him all in. Most likely he will call, but even if he dont call. I still net atleast 140$. Since though I didnt hit on the turn. I bet all in there, instead of making the push on the river, cause at that point with another 50$ bet like I said he is pretty much pot comitted. If I dont make the flush on the river. Then my all in push wouldn't be as strong so I know he will probably call so I have to let the hand go.

Quote:

Yea once the Qh hit I was just trying to steal the pot. I figured he had a flush. I was just betting/hoping that he didnt have the nut flush and would fold. Thats the question I would like someone to answer. If your the villian in that hand. How can you possible think that your garbage flush like that is good?

nutsinho

03-04-2006, 01:19 AM

#8 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt

Posts: 3,280

Dude, the calls made be villain in hand one were ridiculously easy. You didn't rep a flush draw on the flop, now all of a sudden youre making huge bets when the flush hits? WTF is that?

My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.

Ugly Ed

03-04-2006, 01:24 AM

#9 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 116

Quote:

You didn't rep a flush draw on the flop

What would have been repping the flush draw?

bdawg56kg

03-04-2006, 02:11 AM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Honolulu

Posts: 1,201

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugly Ed

If you start laying down hands like a flush in this spot, you will get steamrolled at a 5-max table. Unless you were playing like an absolute nit, there's almost no way I lay down a 9-high flush villian's spot.

You made 2 crucial mistakes in the first hand. Mistake #1 was that you continued with a weak draw after getting raised on the flop. Mistake #2 is that you tried to "bluff" villian off a huge hand when you claim you knew what he had. If you put him on the flush, then fold!

Also, probably the most important thing you should realize is that just because you think an opponent should play a certain way (ie fold weak hands in certain spots), it doesn't mean they will. In fact, they probably won't, which is why beating on the fishes is so profitable.

Ugly Ed

03-04-2006, 02:22 AM

#11 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 116

Quote:

"bluff" villian off a huge hand

So 9 high flush is a huge hand? I had never concidered it to be. Maybe I should. Where do you see the difference between hand 1 and hand 2? If you were villian in hand 2 would you have called?

midas06

03-04-2006, 03:00 AM

#12 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: NZ

Posts: 2,196

Are you rolled for 200nl?

Ugly Ed

03-04-2006, 03:14 AM

#13 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 116

Quote:

"bluff" villian off a huge hand

Then I would like to ask. Am I too tight with suited cards? I fold XXs alot. I will usually play suited connecters, 1 mb 2 gappers, A9s or less, K9s or less to a small raise 1-4 xBB. ATs up, KTs up, to a larger raise or I'll raise. If I make 3rd nut flush or less. I'll try to see it down cheap, if opponent is repping a flush. I wouldnt go all in with out a read that opponent overbets/bluffs with out 2nd nut flush or better? To tight?

Fnord

03-04-2006, 03:23 AM

#14 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugly Ed

How can you possible think that your garbage flush like that is good?

Because people adjust way too loose/aggressive than 5/6 max requires. Even if you have a hand, something like a set or 2 pair is as reasonable of a holding as a bigger flush. Finally, a lot of people would try to use all 3 streets to get all the money in with a nut flush.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Ugly Ed

03-04-2006, 07:37 PM

#15 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 116

Quote:

there's almost no way I lay down a 9-high flush villian's spot.

Quote:

Dude, the calls made be villain in hand one were ridiculously easy.

Quote:

hand 1 is the easiest call in the world for opp imo
id go bust there too, but then id be raising 94s to start with anyway

So you all get busted here to? Bets are equivalent concidering the stakes. In case it may be taken the wrong way this is not to be confrontational. I am trying to figure out. Concidering all 3 of these hands. Is it better to wait for the nut flush, then bet big and bust the little junk flush players. Who have no problem going all in with less than 3rd nut flush. Which has been the majority of the responses I have had so far with this post. Will there be more of those people as in hands 1 and 3? Or can I rep the nut flush with a large bet and get people to fold large pots when they dont have the nut flush? Like habd 2. Then just take the lose when a junk flush calls me down? As in hand 1. Which situation do you think I am more likely to come across?

#3
Table "Gau (5 max)" (real money) -- Seat 1 is the button
Seat 1: vavrina ($158.75 in chips)
Seat 2: ellover2003 ($103.15 in chips)
Seat 3: Ugly Ed ($175.30 in chips)
Seat 4: r8rdrew ($160.90 in chips)
Seat 5: fargo27 ($53.15 in chips)
ellover2003: Post Small Blind ($0.50)
Ugly Ed : Post Big Blind ($1)
Dealing...
Dealt to Ugly Ed [ Ah]
Dealt to Ugly Ed [ Qh ]
r8rdrew : Bet ($4)
fargo27 : Call ($4)
vavrina : Call ($4)
ellover2003: Fold
Ugly Ed : Call (3$)
*** FLOP *** : [ Qs 3h Jh ]
Ugly Ed : Bet ($10)
r8rdrew : Call ($10)
fargo27 : Call ($10)
vavrina : Fold
*** TURN *** : [ Qs 3h Jh ] [ 7h ]
Ugly Ed : Bet (50$)
r8rdrew : Call (50$)
fargo27 : Fold
*** RIVER *** : [ Qs 3h Jh] [ 7h ] [ 6s ]
Ugly Ed : Bet ($111.30)
r8rdrew: Call All-in ($96.90)
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $354.70 | Rake: $7
Board: [ Qs 3h Jh 7h 6s ]
vavrina lost $4 (folded)
ellover2003 lost $.50 (folded)
Ugly Ed bet $175.30, collected $347.70, net +$172.40 (showed hand) [ Ah Qh ] (a flush, ace high)
r8rdrew lost $160.90 (showed hand) [ Th 6h ] (a flush, jack high)

Cool thing was I had seen villian in the past hour beat 2 sets and a str8 with junk flushes. So when I destacked him here the rest of the table loved it. I felt kinda like a hero. Heres the quotes.

ellover2003 said, "LOL"
vavrina said, "lol"
fargo27 said, "that's what you get for playing trash"
ellover2003 said, "VNH Ed"
Ugly Ed said, "TY I was waiting for that hehe"

Ugly Ed

03-06-2006, 12:14 PM

#16 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 116

I would like to get some more responces. How many people will play down any flush like hand #1 and 3#. How many people can lay down the non-nut flush to a large raise as in hand #2? Thanks.

Renton

03-06-2006, 02:14 PM

#17 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,991

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugly Ed

Quote:

Hand #2, you are in a not so great position, and you call with an unsuited AT. Why?

ATo is a bad hand for limping. There's just a limited number of ways you can flop something with ATo that works well multiway. You're better off raising to isolate, and hoping you're not dominated by a better ace. The better move would have been to raise and steal the button and/or the blinds.

Renton

03-06-2006, 02:18 PM

#18 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,991

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugly Ed

I would like to get some more responces. How many people will play down any flush like hand #1 and 3#. How many people can lay down the non-nut flush to a large raise as in hand #2? Thanks.

If I have a junk flush, and I meet a huge amount of resistance, I have no problem laying the hand down. I will never play a big pot with a flush under queen or jack high, unless I am heads up.

Of course, by the very nature of my tight preflop play, I very rarely have the non-nut flush (I get flushes rarely anyway, much less than boats even. Suitedness has very little value in no limit.).

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