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Why 3bet AK?

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ThelVlaster

03-24-2008, 03:46 AM Post subject: Why 3bet AK?

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Oct 2005

Posts: 222

Villian's stats: 17.42/5.68/1.47 over 264 hands

I know this is going to sound really results oriented, but it actually isn't. I'm going to post a hand from earlier today where I 3bet AK PF and lost. Because I am trying to become a better poker player, I was trying to think of which of the following were reasons for raising:

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindxc1e

There are only 3 reasons to bet or raise
1) Protect your hand against draws
2) For Value, meaning worse hands are likely to call
3) To Bluff, meaning better hands are likely to fold

I suppose the reason to 3bet AK is for a mixture of reasons 1 and 2, but I was wondering if I could get a regular to comment on what we want to happen here. What types of Players do you make this play against? What if they are shortstacked?

When I saw that his PFR was only 5 or 6, I figured he might have me dominated and questioned the 3bet

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
8 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($10.90)
UTG 1 ($10.00)
MP1 ($3.90)
MP2 ($8.55)
CO ($23.75)
Hero ($10.45)
SB ($9.50)
BB ($20.40)
[CO posted $0.05]
[CO posted $0.1]

Pre-flop: ($0.3, 8 players) Hero is BTN

2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.45, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.2, 2 folds, MP1 calls $0.75

Flop:

($2.7, 2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $2, MP1 goes all-in $2.7, Hero calls $0.7

Turn:

($8.1, 2 players)

River:

($8.1, 2 players)

Final Pot: $8.10

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

452,048,256 games 0.005 secs 90,409,651,200 games/sec

Board:
Dead:
--------------------equity-------------win---------tie
Hand 0: ------51.644%-------44.42%--------07.23% { AKs }
Hand 1: ------48.356%-------41.13%---------07.23% { 88+, ATs+, KQs, AQo+ } (6%)

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pgil

03-24-2008, 04:16 AM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 1,103

I figure you 3-bet this because opp is a short stack and you are okay being in a (most likely) coin flip for 40bb's.

I put some thoughts about 3-betting AK pf in my op thread the other day, but I don't think anyone reads it, and I may be way off on all of the points that I tried to make.

Would you 3-bet a full stack who had a pf raise of 5-6? Do you have any other reads that would allow you to outplay him postflop since you have the button (this also refers to the full stack as there is not much room to play this shallow)?

Also realize that your opponent is raising from fairly early position, if he alters his play based on position that may indicate a stronger than average hand for him. If he doesn't know that position exists, then never mind.

You may also be 3-betting to isolate on the shortstack to remove any difficult decisions postflop if a blind decides to come along.

"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce

Fnord

03-24-2008, 09:01 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Against players with less than a 5% PFR, adjustments must be made...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

jyms

03-24-2008, 03:12 PM

#4 (permalink)

Tilting Mod

Join Date: Feb 2006

Posts: 4,837

What Fnord said.

Also, your reasons you quoted for raising are not reasons for 3 betting preflop. Your never getting better hands to fold and your not bluffing. It can't be for value becasue your actually behind 22+. It's about isolation. AK will not play well in multi way pots. AK prefers less SPR's and needs to be able to play against drawing type hands fast, or be able to just Cbet the pp's that are set hunting and miss. You have a hand that probably cannot stand a showdown against anyone willing, without improvement. Isolate, raise and play it fast.

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mrhappy333

03-24-2008, 09:19 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Hartford, CT

Posts: 1,078

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Against players with less than a 5% PFR, adjustments must be made...

this is good info.

sarbox68

03-24-2008, 10:28 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from

Posts: 871

I also remember hearing and reading (somewhere reputable, I'm sure...) that part of the value of AK PF is FE... hence one of the other reasons we 3-bet. A significant part of my AK wins come from a PFR/3-bet and solid C-bet taking a whiffed pot down... position and reads substantiating of course

ThelVlaster

03-25-2008, 03:09 PM

#7 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Oct 2005

Posts: 222

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

It's about isolation. AK will not play well in multi way pots. AK prefers less SPR's and needs to be able to play against drawing type hands fast, or be able to just Cbet the pp's that are set hunting and miss. You have a hand that probably cannot stand a showdown against anyone willing, without improvement. Isolate, raise and play it fast.

What does SPR mean?

sarbox68

03-25-2008, 03:24 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from

Posts: 871

SPR = stack to pot ratio. In my crap-addled mind, it's about bet-sizing right to control the pot size. AK is most likely at best going to give you TPTK... and TPTK frequently gets weaker as you go thru the streets. If you don't consider SPR in bet-sizing, you'll end up at the river with a bloated pot and not enough behind you to either 1) have any FE or 2) be committed based on pot-odds in a situation where you could be most likely behind.

I'm sure someone else can 'splain it better...

jyms

03-25-2008, 03:58 PM

#9 (permalink)

Tilting Mod

Join Date: Feb 2006

Posts: 4,837

^^^^^^^ pretty good explanation.

Example, $100NL and 100BB stacks for ease of the math. villain raises $4, you 3 bet to $14 and he calls. Pot is $28. You have less than two pot sized bets remaining (SPR = <4), making this a very easy hand to get all in with against draws or weaker hands. If the flop is Axx with two hearts, you can bet $25 and either take it down since no hand will have odds to call in a $53 pot when you have $61 remaining. Draws have no implied odds for that call with 8 or 9 outs, and sets lose based on the fact that they called a $8 raise without good enough implied odds since you only have $86 remaining in your stack preflop. If he calls that bet we can shove our last $61 into a $78 turn pot easily without looking desperate.

If you don't three bet the hand plays like this. He raises to $4, you call. Pot is $8 and you have plenty of pot sized bets remaining .(SPR =12) . Flop is Axx with 2 hearts. You Cbet $7 and he calls. The pot is now $22 with $89 behind. You now have a decision to make on the turn. No matter what card comes, any FD or OESD or combo draw can safely call of 1/4 of their stack on the turn since the pot is only 1/4 of the remaining stacks. There is no real way to give them the odds needed to fold without risking huge overbets into an unknown hand. Without the 3 bet, they have set odds, with the small pot to Stack ratios they have drawing odds on multiple streets.

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frosst

03-25-2008, 03:59 PM

#10 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Nov 2007

Location: count-n mah monies stewie-style

Posts: 220

Why 3bet AK? Because you have read on villian's range and you're putting AK ahead of it. In the case of hh posted, mp pfr's. pf raising 6% in pokerstove gives us 88+,ATs+,KQs,AQo+ (which isn't necessarily his range but its a start given no other reads......given his shortstack, I'm dropping AT,AJ, AQ0) so we're behind 7 hands in his range, tying AK, and ahead of AQs/KQs. We probably shouldn't 3bet this hand

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Why 3bet AK?

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