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Who's the donk? Bluff gone awry

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Silly String

11-01-2005, 06:18 PM Post subject: Who's the donk? Bluff gone awry

#1 (permalink)

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Posts: 1,434

I am embarrassed to post this hand, but I have to know where I went wrong. I have seen the BB bet small on draws before as a defensive bet, but I know he isn't raising out of the big blind with a 5. I thought this was a perfect opportunity to represent the 5. Was this a bad bluff or should I not try to bluff at 25NL? Maybe raise more on the turn? I don't know, but that is why I ask you. Maybe all of Fnord's LAGGY posting lately made me crazy.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Button ($6.85)
SB ($25)
BB ($49.80)
UTG ($27.50)
MP1 ($20.65)
Hero ($27.35)
CO ($28.65)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 6

, 8

.
2 folds, Hero calls $0.25, 4 folds, BB raises to $0.5, Hero calls $0.25.
($1.10)*** FLOP *** 5

BB bets $0.5, Hero raises to $2, BB calls $1.50.
($5.10)*** TURN *** K

BB bets $1, Hero raises to $4, BB calls $3.
($13.10)*** RIVER *** 8

BB bets $2, Hero calls $2.

Final board5

BB shows K

(two pair, Kings and Fives)

Final Pot: $17.10

Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.

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11-01-2005, 06:41 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Fold preflop unless I'm playing against a lot of callers...I don't think you're getting enough implied odds here to play.

Your flop play isn't very good here, either. Your raise of $2 is pretty weak. Jack it up to $3 or $4 and see how interested he is in this hand. Only raising $1.50 gives him odds to draw to just about anything, a flush, straight, or even the two overs he's probably holding. You're looking for a fold here, not a call.

His call makes it look like he has a high pair, maybe a weirdly played AA. I'm thinkin your eight high is no good here. When the king falls and he bets small I would be absolutely done with this hand...You have 8-freaking high, he's called a reraise once and now he's bettin small into you.

Fold preflop. If you must play this hand, bet hard on the flop to find out where you're at, becuase the two fives out there are really the only thin that scares him with this hand.

Fnord

11-01-2005, 06:49 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

I raise this pre-flop if I'm playing, just calling first in sucks. With this hand I want initiative + position and don't plan on seeing a showdown unless I catch something big. Otherwise, I'm pretty much just playing 2 waffles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

Your flop play isn't very good here, either. Your raise of $2 is pretty weak. Jack it up to $3 or $4 and see how interested he is in this hand. Only raising $1.50 gives him odds to draw to just about anything, a flush, straight, or even the two overs he's probably holding. You're looking for a fold here, not a call.

Interesting, there is $1.6 in the pot, do you think pumping $3 or $4 into this is profitable?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

11-01-2005, 07:07 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Interesting, there is $1.6 in the pot, do you think pumping $3 or $4 into this is profitable?

Yes, that is interesting. But interesting things happen all the time at NL25. Players at this level could see that bet as, "Ehh, it's only $1.50 more to see another card, why not?" A $3 bet says, "Hey bro, you better be serious about this hand."

So you tell me what's better. Putting him to the test early for $3, and dumping the hand if he is called...Or firing a second barrel of $4 later (with absolutely nothing) on a bluff and gettin called again? Option number 2 doesn't look right to me, you're spendin $5.50 over the long haul with a guy that has already shown he will call a reraise.

To me, it looks like the $3 raise is a better option. 1) You know where you stand early, and 8-high is no good, and 2) you don't lose any more money on later streets where you generally have to bet bigger.

Agree? No?

P.S. If I'm going to play this hand I am also raising preflop as well, for reasons you have already stated.

Silly String

11-01-2005, 07:38 PM

#5 (permalink)

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If I raise pre-flop, I can't bluff at the two 5's on the board. I would miss the flop and just fold to the $.50 defensive bet provided he plays his draws this way. It that what you suggest? How do you play this if he bets small with his draw?

P.S. I agree with raising more on the flop or just flat out not firing a second barrel.

Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.

r8ed

11-01-2005, 07:49 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Posts: 1,524

So, you guys are saying "If I'm playing any hand preflop - I'm raising"? No limping allowed?

Fnord

11-01-2005, 07:51 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

Another reason I like to play raised pots...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

11-01-2005, 07:53 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by r8ed

So, you guys are saying "If I'm playing any hand preflop - I'm raising"? No limping allowed?

Limping and looking to catch something is my opponents' undoing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

r8ed

11-01-2005, 08:00 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by r8ed

So, you guys are saying "If I'm playing any hand preflop - I'm raising"? No limping allowed?

Limping and looking to catch something is my opponents' undoing.

So, in cash games you raise all hands you are playing? That's all I'm asking. I've considered doing it but I'm still on the fence. If that's what you suggest - can you explain why it's better than limping PPs and suited connectors?

The main reason against it for me is multitabling. It's too difficult to handle the delicate post flop manuevers with 4 windows and limited reads.

Sorry for the hijack.

Fnord

11-01-2005, 08:04 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by r8ed

So, in cash games you raise all hands you are playing?

Except that I'll often check/call from the blinds or over-limp in late position. Otherwise, I want to be raising and I want the button. Then again, I don't exctly have a long track record in 100bb NLHE games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by r8ed

That's all I'm asking. I've considered doing it but I'm still on the fence. If that's what you suggest - can you explain why it's better than limping PPs and suited connectors?

Limping suited connectors sucks. You won't hit a lot of hands and will often be left with a draw. Draws are so much easier to play with initiative and position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

r8ed

11-01-2005, 08:40 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Limping suited connectors sucks. You won't hit a lot of hands and will often be left with a draw. Draws are so much easier to play with initiative and position.

The thing I don't like about this is - if you are playing a hand that will not hit often and leave you chasing - then why play them at all? If you raise with a hand, don't you feel more obligated to win it post flop? I think this is more trouble than it's worth. I'd rather limp them and if I miss then only one blind was invested and lost. If you keep raising hands that don't hit much, it seems you will piss money away over time. Plus, when you do hit, you have to make sure you get paid off.

The thing I DO like about this is - you are raising more often and will get more calls on your real hands. Otherwise, you are sitting there and raising 4xbb+ every other orbit and not getting many callers when you have AA/KK. It makes it harder for them to tell if you have a monster or a draw hand by your prelop raise too.

Still on the fence.

11-01-2005, 08:43 PM

#12 (permalink)

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If you're going to play these hands why wouldn't you raise? What, are you just hoping to hit a miracle flop and then pound it hard and hope to get paid off?

You raise because you are initiating the aggression. You are saying to the table, "I have a good hand right here, beware." You give yourself more chances to win.

1) Everyone can fold preflop
2) You get a caller (or callers), throw out a continuation bet, and take it down right then.
3) You hit an awesome draw and bet it. When the draw hits on the turn or river your opponent that pegs you for AA or KK will give you all of his money. All the while your opponents can still fold their hand.
4) You hit a miracle flop. You bet it. Hopefully you're up against some donkey that is slowplaying AA/KK/QQ, and you take his entire stack.

If you limp and don't hit anything, you bet and then get called...alarm bells should go off in your head saying my hand is no good here.

11-01-2005, 08:44 PM

#13 (permalink)

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On another note, why should your opponent believe that you have a five? He min-raised you and you called. He bet at it and you reraised him. The typical NL25 player will slowplay this hand until the turn/river, hoping not to scare anyone away. That's why his AA or AK is still good here, especially when you have nothing.

Only time I will limp suited connectors is if I'm in the SB, BB, or late with a lot of callers ahead of me (for implied odds).

Fnord

11-01-2005, 08:49 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by r8ed

* We both miss a lot and I win by default because they often don't have the balls to stand up to me. The idiots that do stand up to me often pick bad spots or have such large holes that I will find other ways to get the best of them. If they're truely terrible, then why the hell wait for AA-QQ/AK/set?

* I'm quite capable of letting go of a hand. In fact players like Rippy will claim that playing with air is *more* profitable because you won't get caught with a pretty second best hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by r8ed

I think this is more trouble than it's worth. I'd rather limp them and if I miss then only one blind was invested and lost.

Lots of losing players think like this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by r8ed

If you keep raising hands that don't hit much, it seems you will piss money away over time. Plus, when you do hit, you have to make sure you get paid off.

I can afford to dump a lot of 3x raises + c-bets if I get the best of your 100bb stack often enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by r8ed

The thing I DO like about this is - you are raising more often and will get more calls on your real hands. Otherwise, you are sitting there and raising 4xbb+ every other orbit and not getting many callers when you have AA/KK. It makes it harder for them to tell if you have a monster or a draw hand by your prelop raise too.

Yeah. I'd rather watch paint dry than raise 2% of my hands pre-flop. I certainly come to battle with the tools not to pay those guys off...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Lukie

11-01-2005, 09:50 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Limping suited connectors/1 gappers from early position sucks. If you think you can buy the button, raise it up. If not, fold. Open limping rags like this is a bad play IMO.

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