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freechus9
Old 02-14-2006, 03:27 AM     Post subject: Where did I go wrong? #1 (permalink)  
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Hand 1:

Hand #11535803-14152 at Mcalester (No Limit Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 13/Feb/06 22:43:15

countrypedler is at seat 0 with $5.
Easy Rider42 is at seat 1 with $5.65.
isthatallugot is at seat 2 with $17.
bluelabel is at seat 3 with $13.60.
freechus is at seat 4 with $9.85.
tallpaul64 is at seat 5 with $3.34.
Burningstones is at seat 6 with $9.67.
Whlgnr is at seat 7 with $16.45.
2Sure is at seat 8 with $12.27.
asshgrrs is at seat 9 with $1.90.
The button is at seat 4.

tallpaul64 posts the small blind of $.05.
Burningstones posts the big blind of $.10.
countrypedler posts out of turn for $.10.

countrypedler: -- --
Easy Rider42: -- --
isthatallugot: -- --
bluelabel: -- --
freechus: Ac Js
tallpaul64: -- --
Burningstones: -- --
Whlgnr: -- --
2Sure: -- --
asshgrrs: -- --

Pre-flop:

Whlgnr calls. 2Sure calls. asshgrrs folds.
countrypedler checks. Easy Rider42 folds.
isthatallugot calls. bluelabel calls. freechus
calls. tallpaul64 calls. Burningstones checks.

Flop (board: 8d Jh 7h):

tallpaul64 checks. Burningstones checks. Whlgnr
checks. 2Sure checks. countrypedler checks.
isthatallugot checks. bluelabel bets $1. freechus
raises to $4. tallpaul64 folds. Burningstones
folds. Whlgnr folds. 2Sure folds. countrypedler
folds. isthatallugot folds. bluelabel calls.

Turn (board: 8d Jh 7h 4h):

bluelabel bets $2.05. freechus goes all-in for $5.75.
bluelabel calls.

River (board: 8d Jh 7h 4h 5d):

(no action in this round)

Hand 2:

Hand #11535803-14143 at Mcalester (No Limit Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 13/Feb/06 22:34:37

Riverlicious is at seat 0 with $3.20.
Easy Rider42 is at seat 1 with $5.55.
isthatallugot is at seat 2 with $19.40.
bluelabel is at seat 3 with $5.10.
freechus is at seat 4 with $9.25.
tallpaul64 is at seat 5 with $3.59.
Burningstones is at seat 6 with $13.22.
Whlgnr is at seat 7 with $13.95.
2Sure is at seat 8 with $12.12.
asshgrrs is at seat 9 with $2.05.
The button is at seat 4.

tallpaul64 posts the small blind of $.05.
Burningstones posts the big blind of $.10.

Riverlicious: -- --
Easy Rider42: -- --
isthatallugot: -- --
bluelabel: -- --
freechus: Ad Qc
tallpaul64: -- --
Burningstones: -- --
Whlgnr: -- --
2Sure: -- --
asshgrrs: -- --

Pre-flop:

Whlgnr folds. 2Sure folds. asshgrrs folds.
Riverlicious folds. Easy Rider42 folds.
isthatallugot calls. bluelabel raises to $.45.
freechus calls. tallpaul64 folds. Burningstones
calls. isthatallugot calls.

Flop (board: Jd Ac 7d):

Burningstones checks. isthatallugot checks.
bluelabel bets $.30. freechus raises to $2.25.
Burningstones folds. isthatallugot folds. bluelabel
calls.

Turn (board: Jd Ac 7d Jc):

bluelabel goes all-in for $2.40. freechus calls.

River (board: Jd Ac 7d Jc 6s):

(no action in this round)
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Fnord
Old 02-14-2006, 08:17 AM #2 (permalink)  
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You should seriously consider taking up limit hold'em. You're playing for pairs and playing them too fast.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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bdawg56kg
Old 02-14-2006, 08:44 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Maybe playing hands like TPTK/TPGK this hard will make you money at these stakes, but if you play them like this at higher stakes or against thinking, better players, you will get crushed. Don't take this as an insult or what not. I used to be the same way when I was playing 25NL. The call button is a really great tool that most beginners are told not to use often since it may turn you into a calling station, but in these two examples, calling is a much better play than pumping the pot with big raises like you did.

AJ hand, preflop is okay I guess, but I like taking a more agressive approach and putting in a raise here. On the flop I would really consider folding. You have nothing invested, and the pot is getting big very fast, plus you have a marginal hand and no idea what you're up against. Granted you have position, but in this case I don't mind just giving it up. If I don't fold, I would probably call. You may say why the hell would you call here?!?! Sure there are draws out, but raising like you did will only inflate the pot size to the point where if you get called you're behind a lot. In other words, calling will allow you to see how he reacts to different types of turn cards, and you can make a better decision without just jamming the pot. And the turn push is attrocious. 0 FE combined with a hand that is almost never going to be good at showdown.

AQ hand. Call the flop bet!!! You have position, so use it to keep the pot size under control, or if you must raise, then raise a lot less. Only reason to raise like you did would be if you think you can move him off a hand like AK (something which I wouldn't try at these limits, and something that'll probably never happen given his short stack), or if you think he'll pay you off with a worse hand.

Basically what Fnord is telling you is that you cannot consistently be playing 100-200BB pots with just one pair hands. Like I said earlier, maybe it works at these stakes agaisnt fish, but against better players you will get killed when you consistently play huge pots with one pair hands. In other words you have to learn to control the size of the pot because in general against non-fish, you want to have a lot better than one pair when playing a big pot.
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Fnord
Old 02-14-2006, 08:53 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdawg56kg
AJ hand, preflop is okay I guess, but I like taking a more agressive approach and putting in a raise here.
I'm not a fan of raising here multi-way.
o No one folds unless you make such a big raise that a rare limped big hand becomes a problem.
o It builds a pot with a marginal edge.
o It defines your hand to poor players
o They expect you to c-bet instead of otherwise tipping off their hands cheaper via flop action.
o It leaves less money behind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdawg56kg
In other words, calling will allow you to see how he reacts to different types of turn cards, and you can make a better decision without just jamming the pot.
I hear flush draws don't like it when they have to put in lots of money to see a river after missing a turn. I also hear a lot of really bad players take you up on this sucker bet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdawg56kg
In other words you have to learn to control the size of the pot because in general against non-fish, you want to have a lot better than one pair when playing a big pot.
...unless you pick off a (semi-)bluff.
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bdawg56kg
Old 02-14-2006, 09:15 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdawg56kg
AJ hand, preflop is okay I guess, but I like taking a more agressive approach and putting in a raise here.
I'm not a fan of raising here multi-way.
o No one folds unless you make such a big raise that a rare limped big hand becomes a problem.
o It builds a pot with a marginal edge.
o It defines your hand to poor players
o They expect you to c-bet instead of otherwise tipping off their hands cheaper via flop action.
o It leaves less money behind.
Limping in preflop definitely has its merits, and I like to mix it up as well and don't always raise. However, I think with a positional advantage combined with better post-flop skill, you can turn this scenario into a +EV play. Plus if the table was weak-tight, then raising is even better here (we don't know this though).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdawg56kg
In other words you have to learn to control the size of the pot because in general against non-fish, you want to have a lot better than one pair when playing a big pot.
...unless you pick off a (semi-)bluff.
Yep, that's why I said in general. Besides, at low limits picking off bluffs/semibluffs is not as big an issue as compared to a little higher stakes IMO.
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bdawg56kg
Old 02-14-2006, 09:17 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
You should seriously consider taking up limit hold'em. You're playing for pairs and playing them too fast.
Or buying in short. Then these hands become easy decisions.
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freechus9
Old 02-14-2006, 12:49 PM #7 (permalink)  
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The reason I raised like I did on both flops because it was to my understanding that I needed to raise to see where I was in the hand. On hand 1, I should have folded the turn, as I should have with hand 2. But raising the flop is a bad play in both cases? I thought you needed to raise for information, and perhaps I raised too much, but not raising at ALL is the correct play?
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Fnord
Old 02-14-2006, 12:53 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freechus9
The reason I raised like I did on both flops because it was to my understanding that I needed to raise to see where I was in the hand.
The damage done by this once sacred pillar of NLHE wisdom comes to light. That said, consider why you weren't able to get away from your hand(s) after making these "information" raises.
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freechus9
Old 02-14-2006, 03:13 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Touche.
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Rondavu
Old 02-14-2006, 06:19 PM #10 (permalink)  
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bdawg56kg
Old 02-14-2006, 06:29 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freechus9
The reason I raised like I did on both flops because it was to my understanding that I needed to raise to see where I was in the hand.... I thought you needed to raise for information
Raising to see where you are or to get information is an overused and almost cliched concept in NL IMO. You can get a LOT of great info by using your position and just callling.


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Dude, I don't care if that's you in the avatar. It freaks me out every time you post something. Why the semi nude guy posing erotically?
Word, I was wondering the same thing. Post a hot chick or something.
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Renton
Old 02-14-2006, 06:46 PM #12 (permalink)  
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 I have found, when dealing with family pot situations with AJo and AQo, its best to stick in a pot sized bet. Three quarters of the time that takes down the pot (not a bad result because of how many bets there are). As played, you can't trust that a Pair is golden. You should have played for the two pair or the lucky trips, and only cautiously with TPTK (e.g. not playing for stacks).
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Pelion
Old 02-14-2006, 06:58 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Id raise preflop. You will get a few callers but it will narrow the field a little.

If you do limp then you need 2 pair or better before you get aggressive (preferably top 2) IMO as there will be so many hands out there that hit a random 2 pair.
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Rondavu
Old 02-14-2006, 08:23 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
I have found, when dealing with family pot situations with AJo and AQo, its best to stick in a pot sized bet. Three quarters of the time that takes down the pot (not a bad result because of how many bets there are).
This sounds robotic and rigid to me. I find it better to put all the opponents on a range, and then decide if you're likely ahead before betting the current winning hand strong. If my hand is likely behind, you won't see my money flying in the middle multiway.
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Renton
Old 02-15-2006, 03:37 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
I have found, when dealing with family pot situations with AJo and AQo, its best to stick in a pot sized bet. Three quarters of the time that takes down the pot (not a bad result because of how many bets there are).
This sounds robotic and rigid to me. I find it better to put all the opponents on a range, and then decide if you're likely ahead before betting the current winning hand strong. If my hand is likely behind, you won't see my money flying in the middle multiway.
How would you be behind? The only person who could have a legitimate heads up hand would be the first limper. Conceivably every subsequent bettor can come in with less and less powerful hands. If you stick in a raise and the first limper calls without hesitation... well you can cross that bridge when you come to it. Any other caller is only playing the implied odds that they flop a miracle. Am I wrong here?
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BankItDrew
Old 02-15-2006, 06:41 PM #16 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1: No need to more than double the size of the pot on the flop. A min-raise will give you the information you need to continue on with the hand. Let's say for example he has more than JUST a pair of jacks - You have now given him twice as much money as you should. Let's say for example you have him beat - why would anyone call a bet that is twice the size of the pot with less than TPTK? I know I wouldn't. You turn bet is a bet that I would make if I had a dominating hand and wanted to eliminate any draws. If your opponent was on a draw, he just hit. If you opponent had KJ, I don't see why he would call.

Hand 2: I don't mind the raise on the flop at all. It eliminates odds at drawing (most $.30 bets at this level are donks drawing), and it's not like you overbet here either by betting the pot - you had TPNK. The call on the turn is justifiable as well, you are only investing the same amount as your flop bet to see a showdown. My line if your opponent here had a larger stack would be to see as cheap of a showdown as possible. If your opponent is checking the flop then betting hard afterwards, one pair isn't looing so good. I'd suspect at least a set held here with the all-in.


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