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when it's to late lay down an overpair....

  
 
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wolfofruby
Old 09-20-2005, 06:49 PM     Post subject: when it's to late lay down an overpair.... #1 (permalink)  

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wolfofruby
i had that problem that i frequently run into. You are in a game with several average players. You raise with QQ ( or AA, KK) and get 3 callers !! They are not calling station. The pot is already so big that if two people call a pot size bet (sometime even one), you are pot committed and can't release your hand..... or can you ?

here an example from today.
NL $1/2
Me : KK BB
Caller 1 : ?? middle
Caller 2 : 66 late
the 2 callers and i have start with $200

Before the flop : 3 playerscall the BB, i raise it to $13 and get 2 callers. The pot is something like $40


Flop : 3 small cards : 6xx, rainbow not connected. I bet $35 and they both call.
the pot is $145. Since they are not calling station, one probably has something ( a set). But since i have $150 left, it's impossible to fold no ???

Turn : i bet $60, the first player fold, the second goes all in, i call and show a set of 66

an other example :

i raise with AK $10 and get 4 callers. The pot is $50. The flop has K and is nice. I bet $40 and get one caller. The pot is $120. I can't fold with my stack of $150 left. Same story, i bet $70, he raised me all in. The pot is $340 and it's $80 to call. i call and he show a set of 88

Would you have check ? fold ?
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Rondavu
Old 09-20-2005, 08:28 PM #2 (permalink)  
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If the board is relatively draw free, then be cautious about continuing the turn even harder to committ yourself. A lot of times I'll seek cheap showdown since the board is less likely to draw out on me. Of course, if my opponent has me beat he isn't going to accept a series of small bets. He's going to tell you it's time to leave.

You ran into a set both times and got slowplayed. Shit happens.

In terms of committment, there is no such thing in my book. If I'm beat I fold. That's that. All this talk about the pot is 180 and it's 70 more to call is confusing rhetoric designed to bust you. Forget about that crap and just fold when you're beat. The only time you get into that cycle is against a tricky player who bluffs a good deal, and you want to take a stand with a good hand. other than that it's usually easy to feel a beat and get OUT.

I probably sound like a stubborn fart, but committment is bullshit and I'm never getting married damn you.
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wolfofruby
Old 09-20-2005, 08:48 PM #3 (permalink)  

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wolfofruby
i really like your answer, and i should have probably fold to the raise on the turn or bet smaller but.....

The thing is i learn to play NLH with the books of harrington. An he says stuff like that :
1) if you have more than 4 to 1 odds, call even if you think you are beat
2) if you have put more than 50% of your stack, you can't fold

I know it's a tournament book, so maybe that's the differents between ring game and tournament.
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STIdrivr
Old 09-20-2005, 08:56 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfofruby

I know it's a tournament book, so maybe that's the differents between ring game and tournament.
yes you are right
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Greedo017
Old 09-20-2005, 09:34 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 you most certainly can fold with half your stack in. He's pushing at you for 50BB.
A. do you know you're beat? Answer: yes
B. what is 50BB worth to you? This is a totally uncommitted 50BB, why are you going to throw it in the shitter just because? I feel the same way as rondavu on this one.

And, i assume you're out of position for both of these. obvious check behind if you're not. And, with the aces, i'm inclined to go ahead and bet there as there's a reasonable chance you're ahead and a reasonable chance to get away from it with 50BB. With the AK, I check the turn. Really doubting you're ahead here after that call, and at best you're probably tied and he might check behind.
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edudlive
Old 09-20-2005, 10:54 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfofruby
i really like your answer, and i should have probably fold to the raise on the turn or bet smaller but.....

The thing is i learn to play NLH with the books of harrington. An he says stuff like that :
1) if you have more than 4 to 1 odds, call even if you think you are beat
2) if you have put more than 50% of your stack, you can't fold

I know it's a tournament book, so maybe that's the differents between ring game and tournament.
You're right, Harrington's books are tournament books...the difference being if you have half your stack in and lose in a tourney...you're out maybe $10-$30 at most. In ring, you would be out, in your case, $200
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wolfofruby
Old 09-21-2005, 09:16 AM #7 (permalink)  

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wolfofruby
thanks for your answers. I 'll try to play those hands more cautiously and fold with great odds or half of my ships there.
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Rondavu
Old 09-21-2005, 01:15 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfofruby
thanks for your answers. I 'll try to play those hands more cautiously and fold with great odds or half of my ships there.
You're very obedient. Honestly, you can't get emotional about what you already put in or we OWN you.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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Iwind
Old 09-21-2005, 05:43 PM #9 (permalink)  
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2) if you have put more than 50% of your stack, you can't fold

Tournament or whatever, this is silly, if you are certain you are beat why lose all you have? And what if I had 4 times more chips than anyone else apart from the one I was betting against, should I still go all in a go out of the tournament? And well you can never be 100% certain you have lost, but you can be pretty close sometimes. Don't think he means that if he's written a poker book, and if he does I certainly won't read it.
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johnny_fish
Old 09-21-2005, 06:25 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Just look at pot odds.. Calling your last 50 to win 100 is +EV if you think you'll win >1/3 of the times. In a way this is a simple decision, there's no implied odds to think about. In tournaments it's maybe a bit different due to the pay-off structure.
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Iwind
Old 09-21-2005, 06:47 PM #11 (permalink)  
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By saying I'm certain I will lose.... I don't mean I think I'd win >1/3 of the times.
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melinda27
Old 09-21-2005, 07:35 PM #12 (permalink)  
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you dont ever want to showdown with nothing more than an overpair, and you dont ever want to showdown with nothing better than a pair. when it becomes obvious that you arent getting out of the hand without a showdown is when I usually bail on these hands.
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Checkways
Old 09-22-2005, 11:12 AM     Post subject: Re: when it's to late lay down an overpair.... #13 (permalink)  
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Couple of things. First, having invested 25% of your stack is NOT pot committed! Don't worry about the size of the pot, that's not your money anymore! The other $150 sitting in front of you is.

When you picked up two callers on the flop you should know that overpair is probably no good anymore. At that point, you need to step on the brakes. Everytime you flop an overpair, ask yourself this, "Okay. Who's got the set? Cause I don't."

So what hands could they be calling with? Another overpair lower than yours? Possibly. In which case, they're gonna want a cheap showdown.

The easiest scenario of knowing when someone has a set is exactly the one you gave. You're not pot committed if the pot is no longer yours to win.
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Miffed22001
Old 09-22-2005, 12:51 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 Ugh.
I had an arguement with boostNslide on IRC about being commited to a pot. It got quite heated but eventually we had a good conversation on it.
My point is similar to aokrongly in one of his posts that no matter how few chips i have if my hand suddenly becomes second best i fold it no matter what odds im getting.
When we chase draws we use odds to calculate if our choice to chase is correct. Yet, when do you ever get good odds to show down the second best hand? never.

Quote:
2) if you have put more than 50% of your stack, you can't fold
This quote, while i accept is taken from a great player is a load of crap. If you get into this position i think two things
you should have been all in anyway before now
you tried to defend your hand against a draw it didnt work now fold.
Rondavu said it well, if opp calls your pot sized bet when you raised and then bet the flop then its time to seek a cheap show down if you dont detect a draw, you'll soon find out if your beat or if you have a calling station. The problem with these two hands is you bet big into the best hand on the turn and then found yourself unable to fold tpgk in both situations which is criminal. Afterall dont bet the ranch on top pair.
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aislephive
Old 09-22-2005, 09:38 PM #15 (permalink)  
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A nice check raise is a good way to find out where you are. If you get called or raised, you can be pretty sure that you're beat and hope it gets checked down. People fall in love with overpairs far too often.
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Kiriath
Old 09-23-2005, 12:54 AM     Post subject: ... #16 (permalink)  
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if u got 150 left at a 200 table, and put 50 into a pot of like 150, ur not pot comittet, not even close.

When u get 3 limpers ahead of u, and raise BIG like u do preflop, and ppl call anyway, it screams pairs.

When the board then come 259 rainbow, and u bet pot and u get a call, u know they got a set, unless u got a read saying callingstation or moron already.

When u know ppl have u beat u stop betting and save the other 150 for a better day.

if on the other hand u had raised to 150 preflop, and 2 ppl had called. Then ur pot comittet, and u toss in ur last 50 in no matter what.

Your not committing urself with a 6BB preflop raise and a bet pot bet on the flop. Not even close.
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