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jterry
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02-02-2008, 12:18 AM
Post subject: When Does Skill Become Important in FR?
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 40
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Today I had a fleeting thought. When does actual poker skill start to become a factor when plaing full ring NL? I can beat 5 and 10 NL for around 10BB/100, and it's very mechanical - play pairs and high suited connectors, and push when you have the nuts (e.g. trips or better). Implied odds are huge.
I've come to realize that being "good" is not that important playing online micro stakes poker! I was watching Poker after dark tonight, and it was Doyle Brunson, Phil Hellmuth, and TJ Cloutier at the final table. TJ Cloutier said to Hellmuth something to the effect that you might win by holding the best hand, but you won't win by outplaying us. That's pretty much how you win online, holding the best hand - not by outplaying your opponents.
Suppose you start winning online after playing a fair number of hands, say 25K or more, and you never play above 50NL. Then you play a live $1/$2 cash game at a casino agains thinking players. What will happen? Grinding it out against good players isn't going to win you very much. Even worse, the thinking players start to recognize your betting patterns, and your screwed - they know went to fold to your raises and when to push you off a hand. Now you have to start playing real poker!
When do you need to stop playing mechanical poker online? When does grinding stop working? Can playing the mechanical poker system actually harm you're poker playing ability?
I think the problem is that you (I) get into a gear (the grinder gear) and never change it up. How and when do you change gears? And when do you need to?
Just some random thoughts. Maybe I can learn something from this.
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Andrew
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 210
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I actually started to think about this today. I'm a card man and I prefer the realness of being against someone live. I want to be the best live poker player I can be (and aim to be the best ever). Why live? Because I don't really enjoy sitting in front of a computer screen all day, every day and even in my short experience there is a huge difference between live and online.
So here's what I'm wondering. Starting out as a poker player is it best to be a good to great poker player or aim to be able to beat online games to the point where I'm making good money. I think the former can help with the latter, but I'm still unsure if it works the other way around.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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At 10nl and below, the act of playing better hands and how you bet them is part of the skillset required to win. As you play better players or a different format of poker, the skillset required to win changes. To answer your first question, skill is important in full ring at all levels.
Once you get to certain levels, "mechanical" play takes on different meanings. I feel like I play very mechanically, but those mechanics probably involve a lot more active engagement and thinking about individual opponents than would be necessary at the lowest of microstakes.
As you improve, the things you do mechanically change, and changing gears becomes automatic to some degree. At least that's how I feel about it.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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jterry
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 40
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I should qualify what I mean by skill. Of course the "mechanical" system requires a certain amount of skill such as bankroll management, table selection, hand reading, patience, etc.
The skill I'm thinking of is a higher level of thinking than the grinder (basic poker skills).
So my question becomes when do you need to increase your level of play to that higher than a typical low limit grinder?
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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lol at live players outthinking online players
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Online teaches you strong technical play. That needs to be at the heart of your game. People who go way out of line way too often to chase extra money risk becoming the fish. I find I do best when I play my A game and am paying enough attention to change a play or tip a close one every few orbits.
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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I view ISFs and sauces posts as very technical analysis of the game, and they're playing at a high level. They look for tendencies and exploit them.
You're doing the same. Your villains are overplaying weak hands, so you only play strong hands and value bet the shit out of them. If you're rolling 10bb/100 just keep up to 25NL. You'll run into opponents that know how to fold and you can start taking small/medium pots from them.
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(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
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Jack Sawyer
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Old School
Posts: 2,535
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attention all hudbots
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My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...
Quote:
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VHS is like a book and a book is like a stack of kindles.
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Hey, I'm in a movie!
http://youtu.be/lGdnIrRKDTI
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Deanglow
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: lol
Posts: 2,443
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
attention all hudbots
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Sup.
Also, I've played a 100 sessions or so of live 1/2 holdem, and I have never met a thinking player. No joke.
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