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Whats your line here and why?

  
 
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spino1i
Old 09-06-2005, 03:17 AM     Post subject: Whats your line here and why? #1 (permalink)  
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Villain is the classic nonfishy TAG opposition that populates 200 NL on party.

First off, do you check or bet the flop? I checked. Whats your line here against the flop overbet and why? If your suggested play continues to the turn, whats your line on the turn and why?

***** Hand History for Game 2661542029 *****
$200 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, September 05, 23:05:29 EDT 2005
Table Table 36705 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: mikedk47 ( $414.25 )
Seat 2: Stephanie__X ( $368.95 )
Seat 3: Kingfish__ ( $246.80 )
Seat 5: erduchin ( $170.90 )
Seat 7: hyper_spec ( $383.30 )
Seat 8: rockdoc007 ( $190.30 )
Seat 10: Ladrar ( $213.75 )
Seat 4: TwoSixSooted ( $355.20 )
Seat 6: FishGoneWild ( $200 )
Seat 9: barronb79 ( $200 )
mikedk47 posts small blind [$1].
Stephanie__X posts big blind [$2].
barronb79 posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Kingfish__ [ Ah Ac ]
Kingfish__ raises [$9].
TwoSixSooted folds.
erduchin folds.
hyper_spec calls [$9].
rockdoc007 folds.
barronb79 folds.
Ladrar folds.
mikedk47 folds.
Stephanie__X folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9d, 5h, Ts ]
Kingfish__ checks.
hyper_spec bets [$30].
Kingfish__ ???
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Old 09-06-2005, 05:35 AM #2 (permalink)  
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What's the point of checking if you're not going to check-raise here?
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PokerPatNEU
Old 09-06-2005, 01:36 PM #3 (permalink)  
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I don't think anyone is making this play with a set unless he has a super strong read that you're holding an over pair and will pay him no matter how big he over bets. Tight players who know they play tight and know that everyone else knows that can make this play just because they know people fold to aggression from them easier. He probably puts you on AK that completely missed. I call then lead out 40$ on the turn.
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arkana
Old 09-06-2005, 02:09 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Raise or call and check raise the turn.
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lowBoy
Old 09-06-2005, 03:14 PM #5 (permalink)  
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I think PokerPat's line is good.

I'm putting him on an overpair as well and he thinks you've missed the flop with your check, or a ballsy move with an OESD.
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pantherhound
Old 09-06-2005, 04:41 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 don't understand. How much better can you expect the flop to be?

Raise to around $80. Or just lead out. If he raises your lead, THEN you can go into the tank putting him on a set.
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outphase
Old 09-06-2005, 05:25 PM #7 (permalink)  
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You raised UTG preflop and yet you check the flop... don't understand either. If you check, you have to check/raise strong.
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Fnord
Old 09-06-2005, 05:31 PM #8 (permalink)  
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What's your table image?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Miffed22001
Old 09-06-2005, 06:32 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 Interesting.
You raise utg and check the flop.
Opps play is clumsy. First he has to put you on a minimum of AK but more likely QQ/KK/AA. Therefore if he bets a pair here hes sloppy/clumsy imo.
If he makes this play with two pair/set then its 'cleverish'. If he has put you an overpair he knows your going to call this or reraise at which point its upto him how much he takes from you becasue he knows your callingmost bets (unless you catch a nice turn/river) I think the opp with set makes this move if he reads you on an overpair and knows he can probably get you to commit a fair amount into the pot behind (or at least i would!)
I think i'd call here. Then push the turn if it doesnt appear to improve his hand. He may think youre trying to buy it. I say this simply because i think he has you on missed overs and wants to stop you playing this pot when he doesnt realise hes behind.
Of course i might just be totally wrong so i guess AJ or top pair jacks, maybe an oesd but not an overpair and nothing that beats your aces as yet. It doesnt seem like a set to me.
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Fnord
Old 09-06-2005, 06:53 PM #10 (permalink)  
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I don't like the flop check because my style has me betting here 90%+ of the time and I want to protect that very profitable continuation bet.

However, I like the reasoning in trapping TAgg if he's the bet when checked to type. I'm just at a loss for where to go from here. Difficult to say if he fires out again on the turn, etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
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EricE
Old 09-06-2005, 07:19 PM #11 (permalink)  
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If he places you on AA, KK, AK, AQ then the most likeliest of those holdings are AK, AQ. You check the flop which leaves it open for him to bet to see how committed you are to your cards. I think you have to raise here. If you raise he likely folds if he missed. If he reraises I would have to lay it down fearing a set. If he calls I would bet again on the turn and see what develops.
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DimitriT
Old 09-06-2005, 07:23 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Interesting play there. I guess as part of a way to mix up your play this is an OK move. Following this line I would minraise the flop and check the turn. If he's a TAG and checks back you have him beat (overpair). Otherwise you need to be very careful.
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Fnord
Old 09-06-2005, 09:02 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DimitriT
Following this line I would minraise the flop and check the turn.
How the hell does this line make any sense? Sell him 1 card at the minimum price and then give him 2?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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dsaxton
Old 09-06-2005, 09:11 PM #14 (permalink)  
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I think he probably has J-J or Q-Q. If you just called on the flop, I think he would probably have to put you on either Q-J, A-K (he might also suspect 10-10, but I think he'd be too concerned with getting outdrawn to worry about that), and would probably make another strong bet on the turn, at which point you could just put him all-in (since at that point he'd be too committed to fold).

Raising on the flop seems ok, but I'd suspect you're either way behind or way ahead, and there's really no way he can call your raise if you're way ahead. If you call, you may give yourself the option to release the hand later, and also you allow him to just keep betting off his stack when he's almost drawing dead.

I don't really know what you should do. You put yourself in a pretty awkward situation by trying to check-raise instead of just making the standard bet.
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gabe
Old 09-06-2005, 09:12 PM #15 (permalink)  
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check/call and lead the turn.
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Fnord
Old 09-06-2005, 09:13 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
I think he probably has J-J or Q-Q. If you just called on the flop, I think he would probably have to put you on either Q-J, A-K (he might also suspect 10-10, but I think he'd be too concerned with getting outdrawn to worry about that), and would probably make another strong bet on the turn, at which point you could just put him all-in (since at that point he'd be too committed to fold).
Check/call, check/call, bet? Or is this just not a good NL line?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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dsaxton
Old 09-06-2005, 11:07 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
I think he probably has J-J or Q-Q. If you just called on the flop, I think he would probably have to put you on either Q-J, A-K (he might also suspect 10-10, but I think he'd be too concerned with getting outdrawn to worry about that), and would probably make another strong bet on the turn, at which point you could just put him all-in (since at that point he'd be too committed to fold).
Check/call, check/call, bet? Or is this just not a good NL line?
Possibly. I don't know, I wouldn't have checked in the first place.

If I was going to check-call, check-call, I would only bet on the river if I thought the other play would interpret the bet as a bluff.

After he chooses to check his overpair, and his opponent makes a huge overbet, I don't think there's any line of betting that is very good. No matter what he does I think he's overrepresenting his hand and making it too hard to get paid off. The standard "weak" continuation bet would've been ideal, but now he either has to call a huge bet, or raise to an even larger amount, which indicates a hand stronger than A-A, I think.

I think at that point, the best way to play the hand might be (gasp) passively.
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Fnord
Old 09-06-2005, 11:50 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
If I was going to check-call, check-call, I would only bet on the river if I thought the other play would interpret the bet as a bluff.
Why? He probably has the best hand and many opponents will have a hard time raising even 2 pair on the river in this spot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
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Bmxicle
Old 09-07-2005, 01:35 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
I think he probably has J-J or Q-Q. If you just called on the flop, I think he would probably have to put you on either Q-J, A-K (he might also suspect 10-10, but I think he'd be too concerned with getting outdrawn to worry about that), and would probably make another strong bet on the turn, at which point you could just put him all-in (since at that point he'd be too committed to fold).
Check/call, check/call, bet? Or is this just not a good NL line?
Against very bad lagg players this can be done, but for the most part i avoid this line.

Does this gues normally overbet pots? Do you know what situations he will overbet the pot on? JJ-qq and maybe t9s or a semibluff w/ qj/78 would be reasonable hands for him to have. I can't really see him having a set unless you have some kind of read on the overbet here. I'd continue with the hand, i'd prolly raise here, but calling and leading the turn works well too.
 
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Fnord
Old 09-07-2005, 01:40 AM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmxicle
Against very bad lagg players this can be done, but for the most part i avoid this line.
Why? Thinking players are more inclined to fold hands drawing thin to aggression.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Bmxicle
Old 09-07-2005, 01:50 AM #21 (permalink)  
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opps didn't see that you were talking about what dsaxton was saying, nevermind what i said.
 
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spino1i
Old 09-07-2005, 02:37 AM #22 (permalink)  
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This thread seems to have a lot of replys.. so ill post what happened next..

Kingfish__ raises [$75].
hyper_spec calls [$45].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Td ]
Kingfish__ ???

Now what? If he has a ten im f'ed!
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dsaxton
Old 09-07-2005, 02:54 AM #23 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spino1i
This thread seems to have a lot of replys.. so ill post what happened next..

Kingfish__ raises [$75].
hyper_spec calls [$45].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Td ]
Kingfish__ ???

Now what? If he has a ten im f'ed!
Probably lead out with small or medium-sized bet and call if he raises. It's pretty unlikely he has a 10, especially since another one appeared on the turn.

After thinking about it, I think that raising him on the flop is probably the best play, followed by a bet on the turn.
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