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What's wrong with my play here?

  
 
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Gizank
Old 01-11-2005, 01:15 AM     Post subject: What's wrong with my play here? #1 (permalink)  

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 9
Gizank
Howdy,

This is my first poker-related post here. I've been playing for less than two months. I'm not great, but I'm not losing much, either. I've played online ring games from play money through real money .01/.02 NLHE, .02/.04(whatever the lowest stakes were) Stud, .05/.10 NLHE, and .10/.25 NLHE. I've played in a number of one and two-table ($5 & $10) NLHE S&Gs, and One MTT NLHE Turbo tourney. I've played several hundred hands heads-up with my Buddy sitting around discussing poker and just playing with chips and no money involved. Win some, lose some; not particularly embarrassed by my play at these stakes.

I've read a ton of material online (thanks to this place for some of the best info and advice I've seen), Winning Low Limit Hold'em by Lee Jones, and Zen and the Art of Poker by Larry W. Phillips (not all good advice, but some of it is good and fits nicely with my familiarity with Eastern philosophies). I'm halfway through Sklansky's Theory of Poker and halfway through Harrington on Hold'em, still actively reading both. And any other info I can find, like Card Player and All-In magazines, plus watching all the poker I see on TV.

I'm still working on keeping notes, noticing everything, and trying to get reads. I'm not up-to-snuff with odds, but I understand the ideas and am trying to get it together. While I'm practicing I do my best to make educated estimates and try consciously to make fewer mistakes.

This hand happened last night. For some reason it got under my skin and I've been thinking about it a lot.

It's about a third or so of the way through a two-table, $5 S&G. Still two tables going.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (9 handed) converter

SB (t9008)
BB (t1215)
UTG (t4405)
Hero (t1860)
MP1 (t1685)
MP2 (t3950)
MP3 (t1050)
CO (t1385)
Button (t2442)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 5, 5.

Ok, so small pocket pair, I figure, even though I'm in early position, I want to give limpers little reason to call. Big pair, I'd just call, but I figure raising to 2xBB should do the trick. I'm hoping to see a good flop for the minimum raise, preferably heads-up.

UTG folds, [color:#CC3333]Hero raises to t300[/color], MP1 folds, MP2 calls t300, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls t150.

I don't have great reads, and it's easy to look back and see possible cards, but online poker happens kinna fast and I'm still working on all of it. I figure MP2 might have a medium pair or a couple over cards. Anything better I'd expect a raise, or he's slowplaying a big pair. BB has been fairly quiet, and folds to a lot of my raises. I don't put him on much, since it was a relatively cheap call, but I know anything's possible there, and he's been average-tight from what I've seen. (remember - my skills at reading are rough and mostly guesses still.)

Flop: (t975) 4, 5, J [color:#0000FF](3 players)[/color]

Nice. Set of fives. I like small sets. I get a lot of chips with small sets. The board isn't scaring me much, possible flush draw, set of Jacks? Pair Jacks and a Queen?

BB checks, Hero checks, [color:#CC3333]MP2 bets t600[/color], BB folds, Hero calls t600.

2/3 pot bet. More than a feeler, but still worth a call with a set he probably can't put me on. I was lucky to get info without having to bet first, but a little feeler might have been a good idea. In early position I will play a flop like this soft, since nobody raised me pre-flop.

Turn: (t2175) J [color:#0000FF](2 players)[/color]

OK. Board paired way higher than my set, but this gives me a full house. I see this full house as possibly vulnerable. I read in a few places that sometimes you want to bring a pot down right now, if you're worried about getting drawn out. In this case I worry about a higher full-house coming for this guy on the river, if he doesn't already have four Jacks. I don't know that I can rule out the Jacks, but I don't want to mess with this thing anymore. It's a nice chunk of chips, and while I might take this guy down a lot, I don't think I have the absolute nuts (not even close). If I go all in and this guy folds, GREAT, but if not, at least I got all my chips in with a nice hand.

[color:#CC3333]Hero bets t960 (All-In)[/color], MP2 folds.

Great! I won. I didn't get the max I might have, but I didn't lose my stack, either. I almost doubled up on the hand, and felt I did well.

Final Pot: t3135

Then this guy says, "nice bluff."

I thought about it for about fifteen seconds and replied, "55"

Then he says, "then that was the dumbest bet ive ever seen, but i doubt u had 55"

WTF?

I won the hand. He folded. Maybe it wasn't the biggest pot I could get, but I didn't think it was bad at all.

I'm no stranger to trash talk, but for some reason this guy got to me. I eventually finished in 8th place overall, and called it a night. I don't think this effected my play much that night, except that I felt like I had exposed something important to this guy about my game. Regardless, I know I lost because of a couple bad calls I made, in pots he wasn't even involved in, not because i was tilting.

I guess I could have checked the turn to see if he'd bet, but I honestly didn't want to see that last card. The chips I had left were less than half the pot, and while it most likely gave him bad enough odds to fold if he was drawing, he certainly could have called me if he had a hand. Maybe he thought I was dumb for going all in with two jacks on the board, but I had a hand worth putting my money in on. That sounds like me talking myself out of making that all-in raise in that situation in the future.

So I'm wondering, was there anything I could have done better, aside from risking being sucked out to get another 960 chips? Do you guys see me revealing any vital info in all of this, especially since it's the internet and he can't see me sitting in my chair looking puzzled? I guess I look a little weak and conservative, especially if he believed I had the hand I said I had.

I shouldn't have said anything about my hand, but I figured he wouldn't believe me anyway.

I think I really just need to see that as sour-grapes and a sign he might play a pair like I play a set. Those things should roll off my back, but I really got to wondering about this hand.

What do you guys think?
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Ayce
Old 01-11-2005, 01:56 AM #2 (permalink)  
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On the deal, raising small on weak hands is not a good strategy people will pick up on it. Either make a standard raise or simply call and fold unless your set hits.

On the flop, there are an awful lot of flush chasers don't give them a free card make them pay more than pot odds to chase which is what MP2 does indicating they have two pair, high pair, set or are trying to bluff you out. At levels higher than this it can occasionally be a flush chaser pretending they have something else.

On the turn, ok you are full if they have a better hand than you at this point you are going out. Given your check-call earlier they are going to figure you for the flush chaser. So check, they will likely raise and you can either raise or call again. On the river go all in whatever the card, at your level this will be seen as a bluff quite often and called much of the time. Given the stack sizes MP2 may be pot committed in any case.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 01-11-2005, 02:06 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Leading out on the turn gives a weak jack an opporunity to fold. Checking a nearly unbeatable hand in hopes of check-raising will get more chips in and pocket 8s or 9s may try to take it down on the turn with some strength.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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FishMagician
Old 01-11-2005, 02:26 PM #4 (permalink)  
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FishMagician
At first I thought this bet was horrible, but looking back, it's not so bad. Checking would still have been the best play, but with 2100 in the pot already, and with him leading out on the flop, it's not unreasonable to think you might get a call here. Main problem is that with the flush draw on the board, he's going to bet again with anything he might call you with, in addition to other hands he might have.

For example - if he has JT, QJ, KJ or AJ you're going to get his money if you bet or if you check. If he has 88 99 or TT you'll probably get his money if you check but not if you bet.

-Fishmagician
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Corey
Old 01-11-2005, 02:43 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Gizank, unless you were doing well in this sng dont give your hand away. Next time just do the normal reply of thanks or to get them on tilt "call to find out"

Maybe you wanted to check or not go all in to get the most chips available to you. My guess this person is on a flush draw.

If he is on a flush draw yes bet some becuase giving free cards isnt the best thing to do. Even if he was on his flush draw and he hits his flush on the river you can milk that flush like a mofo.

imo just dont give out clues of what you have. I only show a bluff really.


Corey
 
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FlyingSaucy
Old 01-11-2005, 06:07 PM #6 (permalink)  
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FlyingSaucy
LOL, I love it when people say "nice bluff" after a fold. Was it MP2 who said nice bluff, or was it someone not involved in the hand? If it was MP2, why didn't he call? ...Typical trash talk you'll hear from bad players. You played it well. That 2nd J was all you could hope and dream for on the turn.

Welcome to the forum.
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Gizank
Old 01-12-2005, 01:04 AM #7 (permalink)  

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 9
Gizank
I can't thank you guys enough. I've learned a lot from analyzing this hand and getting your input. I'd like to kinna summarize and feed some of that back now. Feel free to critique.

First thing I learned, overall, is that my gut started telling me immediately that I was making a weak move by going all in on the turn, and would likely have profited much more by just checking. Thinking for a few more seconds might have kept me from doing that. This is something I've encountered in books and tapes and movies and discussions here and even done in games but haven't internalized and made a solid part of my game. I lost my balls this time and jumped too quickly. Listening to that fear of the larger full house draw just long enough to push all-in to scare the other guy off the pot essentially cost me. Another T$960 might have helped me to avoid bumping into the blinds as early, and helped me not make risky bets later in the tourney, when the blinds got higher and I tried to make moves that didn't pan out. It was a big wuss-out, and a bad bet.

I have heard before, but didn't consciously apply the idea, that I would be playing a big hand the right way, even if I lost. If he hit a bigger hand, I would have lost my stack, but I would have played the hand correctly. In the long run checking here and letting him bet, then going all-in on fifth street will pay off. In fact, I'm thinking a hand like that will pay off many more times than it will get beat.

Pre-flop, with a weak hand, betting small is obvious. In this case, better to call to the flop, or possibly not even play a small pair in early position. I usually choose to play the small pair since they turn into nice hands if the flop hits and it's an easy fold if it doesn't.

If the flop hits, I should give bad odds to chasers, or hope to heck someone else does. Betting here will give me some idea of what callers or re-raisers might hold. A bet of about half the pot has a good chance of getting rid of the chasers, and anyone who calls or raises is likely to have a hand, or be bluffing. In this case it worked out because the other guy bet and the third hand folded. I'm curious about what to do with re-raisers here, if they bet very large.

When an even bigger hand hits on the turn, betting big is a bad idea, especially heads-up. Better to set a trap with a check, then call or raise again. This will help get the opponent pot-committed, and just plain get more chips in the pile. Betting here just gives a pair or draw a chance to fold and not put any more chips in. At this point it's unlikely that my hand is beaten, and if it is, I would still be making a good play by checking, hoping for a bet to call or raise.

Actually my play was not good, it was weak and the damage was compounded by letting on that I had a big hand and played it way too conservatively. I was hoping to chase the guy out, when I should have been trying to get as much in the pot as possible. I made this worse by giving up information about how I was playing by telling MP2 what I was holding. This is the only time I've ever told someone what my hand was, and I've only shown my cards a couple of times, like showing 72o when it's folded around to me in the big blind. I doubt I will even do that in the future.

Saucer - Yes, it was MP2 who said "nice bluff". Rather than give info away, in the future, I will either give the smart-ass "ty", or ask why they didn't call. I don't think I played this well. I think I played it okay. The second Jack was all I could hope and dream for, but I squandered it. I got chips, but I didn't maximize my wins, and that's as good as adding to my losses. Rather than putting my opponent to a decision, I made a mistake myself, and I can promise I will be conscious of that mistake in the future, and am less likely to make it again. I appreciate the words of reassurance, and don't feel like as much of a dolt as I did.

I feel welcome here. You guys rock, and I'm gonna suck your brains whenever I have one of these situations.

It was like Mike in Rounders got that full house against Johnny Chan and then instead of check-raising, he gave Johnny an easy decision to fold. Dumb.

Speaking of Rounders, have you all watched that DVD with the poker player commentary on? Definitely entertaining (and informative).

Thanks again for helping me get a read on some of my leaks!
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Zangief
Old 01-12-2005, 04:07 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Zangief
Yes, never show cards, unless you do so to add to a table image. Or so I hear. I just never show, unless I want people to continue folding to me when I'm hitting big hands.

I suggest you don't mention Rounders in any post that is meant to be taken seriously.

But now that you have mentioned it: What the heck are you talking about? Mike bluffs with rags against Johnny Chan. Mike has the full house against Teddy KGB - 9s full of As, which gets slaughtered by As full of 9s.
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Gizank
Old 01-12-2005, 04:17 AM #9 (permalink)  

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 9
Gizank
My bad... Shows I haven't watched it that much.

I mainly mentioned it to bring up the commentary. Inappropriate, but I watch a lot of movies... seems to seep in everywhere. Oh well.
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