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crikreef

03-18-2006, 09:25 PM Post subject: What'd I do?

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: San Diego

Posts: 64

Did I do anything wrong here or is this just something that's gonna happen? Raise more on the flop?

I bet on the river because with that line I was defintely not putting him on the flush and was hoping if he was weak that he might think I was betting the flush.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Hero ($22.50)
MP1 ($35.42)
MP2 ($24.13)
MP3 ($14.50)
CO ($25.85)
Button ($21.55)
SB ($23.45)
BB ($10.25)
UTG ($25.10)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J

, Q

. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
1 fold, Hero calls $0.25, MP1 calls $0.25, MP2 calls $0.25, 1 fold, CO calls $0.25, 1 fold, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.50) 9

, 7

, Q

(6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $1.65, MP1 calls $1.65, MP2 folds, CO calls $1.65, SB calls $1.65, BB folds.

Turn: ($8.10) K

(4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $7, MP1 folds, CO calls $7, SB folds.

River: ($22.10) 4

(2 players)
Hero bets $8, Villain raises all-in $14 Hero calls $6

Final Pot: $50

Results in white below:
Hero has Jh Qs (one pair, queens).
CO has Ad 2d (flush, ace high).
Outcome: CO wins $22.10.

crikreef: called $1 for your gut shot? (in an $0.85 pot)
jankyspot: high roller
jankyspot: had a couple outs
crikreef: lol
crikreef: ya
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NLHE lahooozaher

03-18-2006, 09:39 PM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2006

Posts: 916

Quote:

Did I do anything wrong here or is this just something that's gonna happen?

Fold preflop and it won't happen. This hand really shows why playing OOP sucks and it's because you built a pot OOP with a weak hand and built it big enough to pay off his flush when he hits. Doing some math it seems that he called $7 to win $29 given that he had position and you gave him implied odds so his turn call isn't even a mistake here.

If you didn't think he had a flush draw, what did you think he had? Did you really expect him to call with a worse hand on the river after calling a big bet on the turn when the flush hits the river?

Edit: My suggestion for the river is check/calling or check/folding depending on what you know about him.

Renton

03-18-2006, 09:42 PM

#3 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,992

I fold that preflop. JQo is a late position hand.

As played I would check/call or check/fold the river depending on my read or feel at the time.

Just feel good about the fact that you gave him such horrible odds to chase the flush that he didn't even make enough on the end to have proper implied odds. Even with him winning the hand, this was a +EV hand for you.

jackvance

03-18-2006, 10:00 PM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 2,910

jackvance is an unknown quantity at this point

Rough estimate calculations: he throws in ~1/3 of the pot for a 1/6 chance of hitting his flush on the turn.. not a great idea by him, but implied odds are there too, as can be seen here. After his flush hit, he

If we calculate it for turn+river, he has made a 'break-even' bet here.

It is complicated to know which interpretation to take, as there'll be a probable turn-raise if a flush does not fall, which adds to the cost.. and there are 'implied odds' which add to the benefits and both are kinda uncertain.

Sry, not really advice, just trying to do the math. I probably woulda done the same here.. don't think you could readily he was going for a flush draw. Personally I woulda checked on the river.. since there is now a flush AND an overpair possibility out. But that's just me, dunno what is "best"

Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity

dj newman

03-18-2006, 11:22 PM

#5 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Dec 2005

Posts: 210

Fold preflop....having said that, you need to look at the rest of your streets, cause you have a bigger problem than starting hand selection.

Do not bet the flop - you are in lead position with 5 people to act behind you. You have TPGK with a flop that contains both straight and flush draws. If one person calls....the rest will have odds to call...and then puts you in a position you do not want on the turn. Check this and see what happens...and then go from there.

Do not bet the turn - You have TPGK and had 3 callers on your flop bet...not only that the turn was an over.

Check/fold or check/call the river - not a good card for you and this guy isn't going away...hope for a cheap showdown.

After saying all of this...you need to learn pot management...this is not a hand you want to play a big pot with, so leading out the flop/turn/river is not a good idea, as this makes the pot bigger which makes the bets bigger on every street. You are playing a mediocre hand for stacks...not recommended. This is also why leading out your premium hands is a good idea...the pot gets irresistably big for other players on the later streets and then you can stack them.

dj newman

03-18-2006, 11:27 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Dec 2005

Posts: 210

Oh, and one more thing, quit justifying your bad plays by looking at someone else's horrible plays. Just because he made bad calls on every street, doesn't mean you didn't make mistakes on every street. This hand should show you why nut-camping at this level is a good strategy, this guy put is whole stack at risk on a draw...hit a good hand and stack him.

Renton

03-18-2006, 11:42 PM

#7 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,992

I think this is a screaming case of Aokronglys 19 hands system gone awry. His strategy (at least what I have read of it) seems to say to limp QJ, KJ, and KQ from any position. This hand proves why you can't play drawing hands out of position.

dj newman

03-18-2006, 11:53 PM

#8 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Dec 2005

Posts: 210

Renton, you should read his system before critiquing it....it says nothing like that....in fact it says not to play QJ at all.

Miffed22001

03-19-2006, 12:59 AM

#9 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!

Posts: 8,181

i dont think QJo is a fold in the sb. Against so many opps its worth a look at the flop.
Once opp plays his hand thus, its an easy fold.

Renton

03-19-2006, 01:12 AM

#10 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,992

If I am not mistaken QJ is one of the 19 hands. The other 18 being pairs, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, and KJ.

And I am not saying aok's strategy is bad. I am just saying that not all broadways are playable from all positions.

I would never presume to critique someones system without reading it first.

Cocco_Bill

03-19-2006, 02:39 AM

#11 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: Sweden

Posts: 1,254

The turn bet is horrible

fold river

Fnord

03-19-2006, 02:50 AM

#12 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

QJo is a horrible hand out of position. I spit on AK's 19 hands and I'm folding pre-flop. If I were to play it, I think raising is the better play so you have a 3 card hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

crikreef

03-19-2006, 02:58 AM

#13 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: San Diego

Posts: 64

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

that's actually what I have been following. slowly adjusting it as hands like this happen more often though. I think it is generally a pretty solid place to start though. got me to clean up my play a lot. i normally try to "nut-camp" but have been getting sloppy lately playing 9 tables to try and get the triple bonus before finals come next week.

i agree that i played the hand poorly too. i stick to my calling this from the SB but should not have been as aggressive on flop and turn which would have made it easier to let it go when the flush hit on the river.

thanks for all the input.

NLHE lahooozaher

03-19-2006, 03:13 AM

#14 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2006

Posts: 916

I'm confused...

Quote:

i stick to my calling this from the SB

Quote:

Hero is UTG+1 with Jh, Qs

crikreef

03-19-2006, 04:26 AM

#15 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: San Diego

Posts: 64

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

i dont think QJo is a fold in the sb. Against so many opps its worth a look at the flop.
Once opp plays his hand thus, its an easy fold.

my bad, i wasnt paying attention and just posted after reading this post.

biondino

03-19-2006, 03:45 PM

#16 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars

Posts: 3,170

JQ is a marginal hand at the best of times utg+1 it's an absolute clear fold for anyone who doesn't have excellent post-flop skills.

You put in a hefty bet on the flop and got called. This is where you think to yourself "maybe TPGK isn't going to be enough", and check/fold or check/call to showdown.

I suspect this hand is only being discussed because the villain chased, and hit, a flush that maybe he shouldn't've. You can expect to beaten by a genuienly better hand in 75% of hands like this - just see it as evidence why QJo is simply not good enough to limp from EP.

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