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Zangief
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10-03-2005, 05:36 PM
Post subject: What does it look like I have?
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 370
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Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
saw flop|saw showdown
Hero ($25)
BB ($15.80)
UTG ($23.20)
UTG+1 ($16.81)
MP1 ($39.85)
MP2 ($38.40)
MP3 ($30.83)
CO ($35.65)
Button ($28.80)
Preflop: Hero is SB with ?, ?. Hero posts a blind of $0.10.
4 folds, MP3 raises to $1, 1 fold, Button calls $1, Hero (poster) calls $0.90, 1 fold.
Flop: ($3.25) 3 , K , 2 (3 players)
Hero checks, MP3 checks, Button bets $2, Hero calls $2, MP3 folds.
Turn: ($7.25) K (2 players)
Hero bets $4, ....
What does it look like I have? Why would I check-call the flop and lead the turn?
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PokerPatNEU
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 797
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22 or 33 and you put button on a K?
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bair
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 953
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nothing
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Since the preflop raiser bet $2 into a $3 pot on the flop, then once the K hits the turn it becomes elementary to represent it with what looks like a value bet, since a paired board usually doesn't produce a player with trips shorthanded. Even AA would be hardpressed to showdown. If the opponent has the king he raises and you fold.
It doesn't matter what you have, but I would guess it's not the King for the same reason you might guess your opponent is kingless.
Think of it like this... If you have the king, and tried to check the turn to slowplay, then most of the time your opponent will check behind unless he or she is overaggressive. Against most opponents you want to value bet when you have it, and hence value bet when you don't. It has to be somehow +EV to rep it here almost every time. If the opponent smooth calls your value bet with nothing or with the king, then hammer the river regardless.
It's only my opinion that betting out like that on the turn gives you a stellar read no matter what you have.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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I think you have a PP that did not hit the board, but now you have two pair and you bet to find out where you are at.
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STIdrivr
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern california
Posts: 580
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by r8ed
I think you have a PP that did not hit the board, but now you have two pair and you bet to find out where you are at.
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That is what it looks like to me
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DaNutsInYoEye
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,921
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He has AK. End of discussion.
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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2 spades.
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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Way to go nutsin your eye you suck at everything you do, your life is a big disapointment you **** sexual
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Zangief
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 370
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In this particular hand, I had the :As: :Qs:.
I didn't feel like it was a strong enough hand to reraise (especially out of position) preflop.
I checked the flop to see how the action unfolded. I didn't want to semi-bluff and get blown out of the water here. I was willing to call a pot-sized bet to see what the turn brought.
The preflop raiser checked and the button bet. I figured the button could be betting with just about anything, so I called hoping the preflop raiser would not raise.
When the turn brought another K, I figured that now was a better time to semi-bluff. If the button has nothing or a pair smaller than a K, it would be difficult for him to call. If the button has a K and he calls or just min-raises me, I get a good price to draw to the nut flush when he has a hand that he may have difficulty folding on the river. If he raises me big, it is an easy fold.
I believe if any of my opponents paid close attention to my style of play at PartyPoker, they would have known that I did not have a strong K, 33, 22, or an overpair, because I would always either lead out or check-raise those with the flush draw on the board. (I don't think I have enough information here to put my opponent on a K.)
How do you think this play compares to:
1. Leading the flop?
2. Check-raising the flop?
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Zangief
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 370
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
2 spades.
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You got it, Fnord. How did you know?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zangief
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
2 spades.
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You got it, Fnord. How did you know? |
Only really good players would play Kx (or better) that way. My impression is that you don't think at that level, nor any indication that you need to. You're too tight to float, hence you were likely drawing and decided to donk the turn.
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lolzzz_321
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NO YOU
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: My ice is polarized
Posts: 2,797
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ZING!
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Zangief
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 370
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zangief
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
2 spades.
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You got it, Fnord. How did you know? |
Only really good players would play Kx (or better) that way. My impression is that you don't think at that level, nor any indication that you need to. You're too tight to float, hence you were likely drawing and decided to donk the turn. |
If I had 33 or 22 and could put my opponent on Kx (as PokerPatNEU mentioned), I can understand playing it this way. The flush draw presents less danger, so check-calling the flop and leading the turn probably gets the most money in the pot before the opponent can figure out he is beat.
But I don't understand why I would play Kx this way, unless I could put my opponent on a hard-to-release hand like AA or a weaker Kx.
Can you explain to me why a really good player would play Kx or better that way?
Also, what does "You're too tight to float" mean?
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PokerPatNEU
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 797
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I think that Fnord says a really good player might play Kx that way because it really doesn't look like you are holding Kx when you lead the turn here, and you can get your trips paid off by villains pocket pair if he puts you on a bluff. Yay or nay?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zangief
Can you explain to me why a really good player would play Kx or better that way?
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To avoid spewing with a very live flush draw out (since an aggro player will make it difficult to figure out where you're at on the flop, but will more often fall in line on the turn.) By playing a turn you can screw the draw and get a better feel for where you're at. Also, the lead looks like a stupid stab at the pot, so you'll get raised by aggro players who think you're full of shit.
I'm not saying they would always play Kx like this, but it certainly would be a line to consider.
Same reason Bruson in SS says to leads sets into the PFR, it often goes like this:
You: Donk
PFR: "I still have a big pair" or "I still have 2 cards damnit" or "How dare you donk me!" Raise!
You: Re-raise
PFR: Fuck, I'm pot-struck.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zangief
Also, what does "You're too tight to float" mean?
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I doubt you call this flop in this game with very few outs (4 or less) intending to steal the pot on a later street with a bluff (aka floating.)
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Zangief
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 370
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I appreciate the answer. I didn't actually know what a "donk bet" or "floating" was before this post. And I hadn't considered that line for slowing down aggro draw players before. Thanks.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Also, the lead looks like a stupid stab at the pot, so you'll get raised by aggro players who think you're full of shit.
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Alright, so what's the best line here? Check-raise the flop and lead the turn if I'm not reraised?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zangief
Alright, so what's the best line here? Check-raise the flop and lead the turn if I'm not reraised?
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Hold'em is a game of Cards, Position, Betting and People. In cash No Limit games with deep stacks the People become much more important. With deep enough money, cards almost don't matter.
I guess what I'm getting at is that there is a lot of information missing here and you're out of position to boot. Consider how I was able to put you on a hand...
Read some of my more recent posts in the LHE section and what kind of information I'm working with in a game where playing your Position and Cards is more important. You're making more important post-flop decisions with less information.
Or to put it yet another way, if I knew the best line here I would play more NLHE. 
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ekillian
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 235
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77-TT
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ekillian
77-TT
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Hero folds the flop.
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Zangief
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 370
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ekillian
77-TT
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Hero folds the flop. |
This depends on whether I think the button is stealing or not. This probably ends up being 75-85% folds, 15-25% check-raises. But I don't usually do this based on a conscious read ... it's usually more random.
This gets back to what you were saying about the game being about people. I find that I often don't have the reads I need to know which play is best. This comes down to:
1. Not playing often enough.
2. Having hundreds or thousands of different opponents at NL$25 on Party.
3. Not playing long enough sessions.
4. Not taking good enough notes because I'm 3-4 tabling.
How do people deal with this? Auto-ratings with Poker Tracker?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zangief
4. Not taking good enough notes because I'm 3-4 tabling.
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Drop down to 2 tables.
Buy/download a HUD for PokerTracker
Look-up every hand the goes to showdown. Put yourself in the place of your opponents. Try to understand their logic and habbits. Compare them to similar players you've seen before. Make assumptions and run with them. Focus on the guys right around you and the ones playing too many hands. The guys playing too few hands are easy to deal with and not as profitable.
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