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What to do with K-K...

  
 
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Vi-Zer0Skill
Old 11-21-2006, 06:53 PM     Post subject: What to do with K-K... #1 (permalink)  
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 I feel like i have played enough poker now that i no longer consider myself a beginner. However, K-K is a hand that tends to get me into a lot of tough spots, such as the following. What i would like to know is, against a player whom i have no reads on, what do i do with this hand? Should i pop it for one more raise, and fold if he pushes? I should also mention that the raiser did drop a $100 pot 5 hands before this one.

PokerStars Game #**********: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2006/11/21 - 14:42:51 (ET)
Table 'Dziban II' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Reese-T ($118.65 in chips)
Seat 2: Salgas ($174.70 in chips)
Seat 3: CRAZYACES11 ($153.40 in chips)
Seat 4: jchysk3027 ($98.40 in chips)
Seat 5: wbt28 ($102 in chips)
Seat 6: Jamie217 ($98.50 in chips)
Seat 7: MarcoA_BR ($156.75 in chips)
Seat 8: VI-Popsmak ($95.70 in chips)
Seat 9: aces2x ($99 in chips)
MarcoA_BR: posts small blind $0.50
VI-Popsmak: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to VI-Popsmak [Ks Kd]
aces2x: folds
Reese-T: folds
Salgas: folds
CRAZYACES11: folds
jchysk3027: calls $1
wbt28: raises $3 to $4
Jamie217: folds
MarcoA_BR: folds
VI-Popsmak: raises $5 to $9
jchysk3027: folds
wbt28: raises $16 to $25
VI-Popsmak: ?
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bode
Old 11-21-2006, 08:43 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 first, you need to re-raise to $12-13. After the 4-bet by villain, i think i just push this. This is beat to death everywhere, and I just wont fold KK preflop unless villain is a total nit.
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Rondavu
Old 11-21-2006, 09:02 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Stop min raising. All it does is define your hand without punishing worse hands that call. Make it at least 3.5x the villain bet. If he bets $3 make it $10-11. If he bets $4 make it $14 etc.

A lot of people do this because they are afraid to scare the action. That's why you need to reraise more than QQ-AA. You should do it....

1. With AK AQ TT JJ in position against all but the tightest raisers

2. Whenever you're ahead of a very loose raise range with a good hand. Like a guy who raises every time and you have AJ. Reraise 3.5x.

3. With any two against aggressive non maniacs, to put them in line. Reraising preflop gives you extra fold equity after the flop. If you show a table you're capable of reraising 72 and using a trememendous amount of fold equity to steal an inflated flop pot, you can see why reraising AA to 3.5x will be gold.
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martindcx1e
Old 11-21-2006, 10:11 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
Stop min raising. All it does is define your hand without punishing worse hands that call. Make it at least 3.5x the villain bet. If he bets $3 make it $10-11. If he bets $4 make it $14 etc.

A lot of people do this because they are afraid to scare the action. That's why you need to reraise more than QQ-AA. You should do it....

1. With AK AQ TT JJ in position against all but the tightest raisers

2. Whenever you're ahead of a very loose raise range with a good hand. Like a guy who raises every time and you have AJ. Reraise 3.5x.

3. With any two against aggressive non maniacs, to put them in line. Reraising preflop gives you extra fold equity after the flop. If you show a table you're capable of reraising 72 and using a trememendous amount of fold equity to steal an inflated flop pot, you can see why reraising AA to 3.5x will be gold.
rondavu, do you ever re-raise with any 2 (like 7-2) and show after you take down the pot on the flop? is that a way you personally lose all respect at a table? i've seen you say before that you like losing respect...what are the most common ways you go about this?
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Vi-Zer0Skill
Old 11-21-2006, 11:22 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 Thank you for the advice about the strength of my raises. Personally, i have read advice from several players on this site that seems to advocate automatic all in PF with the K-K (barring a read on the other player). I think it is important to remember that this is only the second best starting hand, and at my limit, (.50-1.00 NL) the 4 bet PF strongly suggests, and ends up being, A-A... I did fold this hand PF and do believe i made the proper fold. But, i will be a lot more aggressive and less hand selective with my 3 bet PF. Again, thank you all for your feedback.
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martindcx1e
Old 11-22-2006, 03:22 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill
Thank you for the advice about the strength of my raises. Personally, i have read advice from several players on this site that seems to advocate automatic all in PF with the K-K (barring a read on the other player). I think it is important to remember that this is only the second best starting hand, and at my limit, (.50-1.00 NL) the 4 bet PF strongly suggests, and ends up being, A-A... I did fold this hand PF and do believe i made the proper fold. But, i will be a lot more aggressive and less hand selective with my 3 bet PF. Again, thank you all for your feedback.
ya vi, most don't really believe in folding kk preflop around here. it's a tough call either way with these spots. i can't blame you for folding or pushing in this spot.
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Rondavu
Old 11-22-2006, 02:36 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
rondavu, do you ever re-raise with any 2 (like 7-2) and show after you take down the pot on the flop? is that a way you personally lose all respect at a table? i've seen you say before that you like losing respect...what are the most common ways you go about this?
I do just about everything. It depends on where you want your image, and for what reason. Sometimes I want a good image, because it works for that table. If I'm at a table of people who will start taking marginal hands deep against my bad image, I will make it bad as quickly as I can.

One technique I use is nit leverage. That is to say I will pick on the nittiest villain, showing down outrageous bluffs on equity cards, in order to stimulate action in hands against the other villains who may have burned me in my attempt at building a beneficial image otherwise. They become my unwilling partner/victim in extracting value from the tougher players.

Like I said though, it's not always the best idea. The other night I had Renton two to my left, and built a degraded image. It was a bad idea, because Renton kept reraising me in position, and there were players at the table already playing bad in medium sized pots. I started losing the value I gained from others bad play through my image to the other tough player who had position on me. In this case I would have been best served creating a solid image and extracting small chunks of value along with Renton from the other players. Instead I started spewing to the left, as a solid capable opponent tends to do to you when you act like a douchebag.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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