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Fnord
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12-14-2005, 02:26 PM
Post subject: What did I step in?
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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The usual 100NL fishing hole
MP has $60
I cover.
My opponent is loose, likes to limp and will fold to post-flop aggression. On the last hand I iso-raised and won with a c-bet with a couple cards. Table is a mix of Tight, semi-tight and loose passive.
MP limps
I raise to $4 with A 9
folds around
MP re-raises to $9
I call
$19 in the pot, heads-up to the flop.
5 7 8
MP bets $10, I call
$39 in the pot, heads-up to the turn
9
MP bets $20, I put the rest in...
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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You must be very confident he has QQ+, not a spade and will fold despite putting in $39 already. You mentioned he would fold postflop but I think he takes a stand here.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by r8ed
You must be very confident he has QQ+, not a spade and will fold despite putting in $39 already. You mentioned he would fold postflop but I think he takes a stand here.
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No, I don't think he's folding at any point.
Looking back at it for the fourth time, I think I finally see where I screwed this one up.
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sandstorm
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 573
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What was your plan when you called the flop bet?
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>3
this is my favourite part of the post
it looks like angry boobs
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sandstorm
What was your plan when you called the flop bet?
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Spike an Ace or 6 and pot-fuck him.
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Yeah, limp re-raisers are to be respected more than that without a read. At 25NL that is like trumpets announcing the arrival of AA or KK. Fish wake up with a hand every now and then, but the good thing is you usually get it back later. 
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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The way this went down, I thought there was a good chance of it being air.
I really hadn't picked on him enough for him to limp planning on something like this, I got him heads-up and it was RIGHT after I slapped him around a bit.
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Slapped him around? Did you show your c-bet with any two?
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Silly String
Slapped him around? Did you show your c-bet with any two?
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I almost never show a hand in an online game against strangers.
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EricE
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 894
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So you disregard the reraise as not relating to his cards but indicative of the fact that he has recognized you are pushing him around?
Because otherwise I would have put him on maybe TT. TT is not a raising hand from MP…limp to set. But with a raise in behind him, especially from you, he decides to reraise it. With an overpair on the flop and turn he can confidently put in these bets.
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Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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I wasn't there, but it is my opinion from your description in OP he probably isn't playing back at you yet. He might just think you have hit a couple flops with your c-bets. If you are raising him to take his pots, this opinion changes.
I know you know this, but beware of the limp re-raise. It doesn't take someone playing back at you to do it. A lot of fish do it for two reasons: 1) They are afraid to raise and "lose" a chance to make money with such "great" cards cause everyone will fold to their PFR. 2) They figure the worst that can happen is it gets checked around and they have a "ultra-powerful" hand that is well hidden. Mmmm, fish yummy.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by EricE
So you disregard the reraise as not relating to his cards but indicative of the fact that he has recognized you are pushing him around?
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I didn't say I put him on air. I said I though there was a good chance he has air or something less than AA/KK being over-played. I almost never put people on specific hands, but rather consider the range of possible holdings they could play in a certain way. I see too much strange play from all but the most boring players to pinpoint hands like that.
All that being said, I think he has AA-TT/AK here a lot.
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Your opponent seems too passive to re-raise pre-flop with AK, especially OOP. Again, your read is better than mine since I haven't seen any of his hands.
Not to beat the dead horse though, you already said you saw your mistake.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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EricE
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 894
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
All that being said, I think he has AA-TT/AK here a lot.
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So you made these bets with this in mind...thinking he had the best hand? Or was this [AA-TT/AK] consideration after the fact?
Just trying to understand your thought process.
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Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Silly String
Your opponent seems too passive to re-raise pre-flop with AK, especially OOP. Again, your read is better than mine since I haven't seen any of his hands.
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Bad players do funny things. If he was tight, boring and playing multiple tables, then I'm more inclined to give him credit for what he's repping.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Silly String
Not to beat the dead horse though, you already said you saw your mistake.
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I think the turn is a fold, however it really rests on how often we give him credit for AA-TT here.
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edudlive
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: 100NL 6max
Posts: 623
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Go scrape that donkey poo off your shoe before you get it on the carpet.
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I think the turn is a fold, however it really rests on how often we give him credit for AA-TT here.
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I agree, but it is sooo hard to lay down a hand when you just improved on the last street. I hate my lack of discipline.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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jj?
If i just bullied. Then i screwed up calling preflop
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
If i just bullied. Then i screwed up calling preflop
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I have position and think I can showdown a paired Ace profitably with this opponent and effective stack size. If I give-up without a fight, the more aware players at the table might pick-up on this. He needs to bump it to at least $12 to get a fold out of me.
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Zidane18
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12-15-2005, 06:56 PM
Post subject: Re: What did I step in?
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#20 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 193
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
The usual 100NL fishing hole
MP has $60
I cover.
My opponent is loose, likes to limp and will fold to post-flop aggression. On the last hand I iso-raised and won with a c-bet with a couple cards. Table is a mix of Tight, semi-tight and loose passive.
MP limps
I raise to $4 with A 9
folds around
MP re-raises to $9
I call
$19 in the pot, heads-up to the flop.
5 7 8
MP bets $10, I call
$39 in the pot, heads-up to the turn
9
MP bets $20, I put the rest in... |
poor play IMO
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Fnord
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12-15-2005, 06:59 PM
Post subject: Re: What did I step in?
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#21 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zidane18
poor play IMO
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Please explain.
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Zidane18
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12-15-2005, 07:05 PM
Post subject: Re: What did I step in?
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#22 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 193
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zidane18
poor play IMO
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Please explain. |
u called a reraise with ace 9. u then called a bet on a flop u totally missed
u said u called on the basis of 2 overcards but at best only 1 of these is valid. There are flushes and straights availible
IMO, very poor play
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LeFou
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,361
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sandstorm
What was your plan when you called the flop bet?
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Spike an Ace or 6 and pot-fuck him. |
That just seems so appropriate coming out of Rumsfeld's mouth.,
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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It looks like he's value betting every street. It looks like you may have stepped in poo on this one, unless he's holding something like AK or AQ or AJ.
I don't see the point in the push though... he's only going to call if he has you beat.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BankItPayette
I don't see the point in the push though... he's only going to call if he has you beat.
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I decided I wasn't going to fold...
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Fnord
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12-15-2005, 07:27 PM
Post subject: Re: What did I step in?
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#26 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zidane18
u called a reraise with ace 9. u then called a bet on a flop u totally missed
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I called a weak re-raise with a playable hand and position against a bad player and protected my ablity to continue attacking a weak table.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zidane18
u said u called on the basis of 2 overcards but at best only 1 of these is
valid.
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I counted 7 outs, chance to go open-ended and can float to see a turn bet.
$10 into a $20ish pot with $40 behind.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zidane18
There are flushes and straights availible
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This is a heads-up pot. Be realistic.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Resutlts:
He had KK with a club. I spiked a clean Ace on the river and called it a night.
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siknd
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 359
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thats the danger of weak raising. he could be facing almost any two cards on the flop, and betting 10 into 20 is obviously free 3:1 odds to anyone who cares.
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'If you think a weakness can be turned into a strength, I hate to tell you this, but that's another weakness. '
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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I don't get your play here... I don't play these stakes so that might be why but here are my thoughts.
1. Calling the reraise is fine, if you are going to try to make plays at him, like you did.
2. Flop bet, possibly continuation, call seems fine you have outs if he has KK or QQ.
3. Turn bet... if he has any PP it's likely he has some sort of spade. if he has something like AA-QQ, he porbably puts you on a weaker PP or AK-AQ. If you have AK-AQ he almost knows you don't have two spades, because he has one of them in his hand. With KK or QQ with one spade it would be hard to fold there.
If he doesn't have any sort of spade in his hand, thats a gutsy turn bet, and unlikely.
If he has AK-AQ he porbably has a spade in his hand if not two, giving him pot odds to call.
Overall, i think it's really likely that you are losing here, i don't like the reraise at all because you aren't going to push him out of the pot a good amount of the time.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
If he has AK-AQ he porbably has a spade in his hand if not two, giving him pot odds to call.
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However, calling with the best hand would be a mistake.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Overall, i think it's really likely that you are losing here, i don't like the reraise at all because you aren't going to push him out of the pot a good amount of the time.
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Fold > Raise > Call
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bdawg56kg
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12-16-2005, 01:01 AM
Post subject: Re: What did I step in?
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#31 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 1,201
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
The usual 100NL fishing hole
MP has $60
I cover.
My opponent is loose, likes to limp and will fold to post-flop aggression. On the last hand I iso-raised and won with a c-bet with a couple cards. Table is a mix of Tight, semi-tight and loose passive.
MP limps
I raise to $4 with A 9
folds around
MP re-raises to $9
I call
$19 in the pot, heads-up to the flop.
5 7 8
MP bets $10, I call
$39 in the pot, heads-up to the turn
9
MP bets $20, I put the rest in... |
Fnord, I know you and I think very differently, so maybe you can take my advice with a grain of salt. I really hate this play for one big reason: villian's short stack. I can understand the preflop call, since you have a hand with potential plus position getting about 3:1, but I don't like your play after that. For the flop call, do you really believe that your A's, 9's, and 6's are all clean outs? I don't. If he has TT-KK, and an ace hits the turn, he has enough left to possibly muck his PP, not to mention a nine wouldn't do crap for you. If he has AK, an ace on the turn will be the death of you.
Anyway, on the turn, you hit one of your "outs". He bets $20, leaving roughly $20 behind. Do you really believe your push has ANY fold equity?!?!? If the answer to this is yes, then we don't have anything to argue, because with 2/3 of his small stack in the pot, I don't think he ever folds any made hand here. If the answer is no, then clearly you were value pushing, figuring your TPTK to be good here, which I think it rarely is.
PS: I don't mind this type of play if the stacks are deep, 100BB minimum, and you have at a read that villian can laydown a hand to lots of pressure.
Edit: Here's another thing I just noticed.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
My opponent is loose, likes to limp and will fold to post-flop aggression.
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First of all, I understand raising after he limps to take advantage of his loose-passiveness, but when a guy like this raises you and bets into you on the flop/turn, it's time to get hell out of dodge. Maybe you were thinking his flop bet was a c-bet of a missed AK, so why not raise here and try to take it down while you still have some fold equity (villian has more money behind)? I can see this type of player folding a missed AK to a flop reraise, but once he bets the turn, he I think he makes itvery clear that he is not folding.
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