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Weak play or good AA laydown?

  
 
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Borax
Old 07-08-2005, 05:53 PM     Post subject: Weak play or good AA laydown? #1 (permalink)  
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Weak play or good lay down?
I was so sure that he held QQ here, that I folded. My flop raise was a bit weak and he might think I was drawing with AK or something and then raise to protect KK. What do you think? How should I play this flop? Did I screw up?

0.25/0.5$ NL 10 player

Dealt to Borax in SB

------------------
OpeningBetRound
------------------
Borax: Posts small blind 0.25
BB: Posts big blind 0.50
UTG: Folds
X: Sits down 0.02
UTG+1: Calls for 0.50
UTG+2: Raises for 3.00
MP1: Folds
MP2: Folds
CO: Folds
Button: Folds
Borax: Raises for 9.00
BB: Folds
UTG+1: Folds
UTG+2: Calls for 6.25
------------------
Flop

------------------
Borax: Bets 10.00
UTG+2: Raises for 30.00
Borax: Folds
UTG+2: Mucks cards
------------------
Result
------------------
Borax Mucked Cards
UTG+2 Mucked Cards (Winning) 57.55
------------------
************************************************** ******
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a500lbgorilla
Old 07-08-2005, 06:10 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Damn. Even putting him accurately on a range of hands, I'm not sure what to do.

I'm pretty certain op has AsKs, AA, KK, QQ.

I do feel preflop should atleast be 10, since you're acting oop for the rest of the hand. This hand sorta goes with my "reraise with AA" thread. If you reraise enough preflop, given his hand range on the flop, you wouldnt even have to worry.

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Borax
Old 07-09-2005, 12:48 PM #3 (permalink)  
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ok - I read the "reraise with AA" - thread and I aggree that I could raise more, but not too much if I want him to call though.

I should add that stack sizes was such that he had 10$ left after his flop raise, while I had about 80$ left when I folded. Read on player: quite strong, hard to get a grip on. His raise to 30$ on the flop instead of a push and a long time of thinking before he made the raise, made me worry even more. It seemed to me that he was fishing for me to push. Maybe he just read me well, cause he couldn't have scared me more than he did with the size of his raise This was one of the few hands where I really really wanted to see his hand It was hard to lay it down and even harder when I still think I didn't play it well.

So say i raise his 3$ bet to 12$ or 15$ instead of 9$ as I did, and he still calls. With the QJx flop, do I push directly for his remaining 40$? I still do not like flops with K or Q in them when I hold AA like here. The risk of him having flopped trips seems high. The reason I put this player in particular on QQ was that he did not reraise me again preflop. Then he probably doesn't hold AA and less likely KK, while QQ fits very well.

I also read "Super system 1" where the author actually warns about pushing AA early in the hand, saying it will loose you big pots and only win you small pots. I actually think this book is the reason I see many players at my level now actually slowplaying and limping with AA. Any thoughts on that?

Too me AA is my biggest winner (0.25/0.5$ NL 10 player 50$ max buy in) and for my last 10 500 hands I've held bullets 51 times winning 82.35% for an average of +3.41$ per hand. Only 7 times have I won over 15$ though and 5 times I have lost more than 15$. Are these normal numbers?
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a500lbgorilla
Old 07-09-2005, 01:37 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Stack sizez are important.

-'rilla
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bair
Old 07-09-2005, 08:19 PM #5 (permalink)  
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i wouldnt fold..could have AQ, AK, AA,KK,QQ, only 1 have you beat, and all of them i would raise the flop if i were him.
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lowBoy
Old 07-09-2005, 08:46 PM #6 (permalink)  
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What was your image at the table, and would he read that? If he read you as a bully he could be making this play with AQ/KK, putting you on a continutation bet.

I'm on the fence with this one, but I'm leaning towards call.
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twosevoff
Old 07-09-2005, 10:52 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
I'm pretty certain op has AsKs, AA, KK, QQ.
JJ is another possibility.
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Borax
Old 07-10-2005, 10:22 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowBoy
What was your image at the table, and would he read that? If he read you as a bully he could be making this play with AQ/KK, putting you on a continutation bet.

I'm on the fence with this one, but I'm leaning towards call.
I think my table image would tell the oponent that I held a high pair or maybe AKs. The fold was not good for my table image though, since I met more aggression from other players after this hand and had to ajust my play accordingly.

I think he would have folded AQ to my raise, but I don't know for sure of course. I think that both a Q and a J in the flop made me more careful. With only a J or a Q maybe I would have played with more aggression. I had no read for his high pair play though, but I was pretty sure he would have raised me again preflop with AA or KK. Regarding continuation bet, yes my flop bet was too weak and could have made him think he had me beat. A call would mean all-in for his last 10$ also making it 40$ = half my stack at the time, and I think the comments here mean that I should have made a move.

Does this sound better?
1) raise to 12$ preflop
2) push the flop for his 40$
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a500lbgorilla
Old 07-10-2005, 02:32 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twosevoff
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
I'm pretty certain op has AsKs, AA, KK, QQ.
JJ is another possibility.
That depends on how aggro op is preflop. More passive preflop players will just call with JJ and try to set.

-'rilla
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res1cue
Old 07-10-2005, 03:54 PM #10 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by twosevoff
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
I'm pretty certain op has AsKs, AA, KK, QQ.
JJ is another possibility.
I personally think that JJ is out of the question. especially calling a $3->$9 raise preflop. If the player is as strong as you said he was, then he would of detected AA with your reraise and known that JJ is something like 50% vulnerable to overcards on the flop. Not worth the money.

as for your hand. Bad laydown in my opinion. especially at your level where alot of people will push hands like AK, AQ (and even sometimes without hitting anything). Its one of these hands that yes you might be loosing to a set of trips, but thats poker and I guess you'll have to pay him off. I personally put him on AK, or AQ because why would he bet30$ on the flop leaving him a 10$ stack. It sound like he was trying to push you off the hand but just in case leave himself money to keep on playing if he has to fold. It just doesn't make any sense, why 30 and keep 10 when he could of put all his money in if he really had a set??? Don't you want to put all your money in when you have the best hand??

tell me what you think.
later
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Borax
Old 07-11-2005, 10:52 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by res1cue
I personally think that JJ is out of the question. especially calling a $3->$9 raise preflop. If the player is as strong as you said he was, then he would of detected AA with your reraise and known that JJ is something like 50% vulnerable to overcards on the flop. Not worth the money.

as for your hand. Bad laydown in my opinion. especially at your level where alot of people will push hands like AK, AQ (and even sometimes without hitting anything). Its one of these hands that yes you might be loosing to a set of trips, but thats poker and I guess you'll have to pay him off. I personally put him on AK, or AQ because why would he bet30$ on the flop leaving him a 10$ stack. It sound like he was trying to push you off the hand but just in case leave himself money to keep on playing if he has to fold. It just doesn't make any sense, why 30 and keep 10 when he could of put all his money in if he really had a set??? Don't you want to put all your money in when you have the best hand??

tell me what you think.
later
Thanks for a good and clear analysis. I think you are right and I'm going to file the hand as a bad laydown by me. Some time ago I would have pushed without much hesitation, but since I started to try to improve on being able to let good hands go, I've had more trouble with hands like this one. Yesterday i pushed with KK in a similar hand (Flop QJ7) and the oponent payed me 55$ with his AQ Another lesson learned I hope.
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Element187
Old 07-11-2005, 04:07 PM #12 (permalink)  
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only problem i really see is your preflop reraise.. i think i would kick it up a lil bit. 12$ sounds better.
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