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Fnord

04-10-2006, 09:17 AM Post subject: Want a straw to go with that float?

#1 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

My opponent is kinda loose, tricky, difficult and aggressive.

How's my line? Standard? Too big of FtoP mistake for this depth?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

BB ($36.55)
Fnord ($100)
UTG+1 ($109.70)
MP1 ($55.10)
MP2 ($110.95)
MP3 ($392.65)
CO ($108.80)
Button ($7)
SB ($27.60)

Preflop: Fnord is UTG with K

, K

.
Fnord raises to $3, 1 fold, MP1 calls $3, 1 fold, MP3 calls $3, 4 folds.

Flop: ($10.50) 7

, Q

, 5

(3 players)
Fnord bets $8, MP1 folds, MP3 calls $8.

Turn: ($26.50) 9

(2 players)
Fnord checks, MP3 bets $15, Fnord raises to $89...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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Pelion

04-10-2006, 10:02 AM Post subject: Re: Want a straw to go with that float?

#2 (permalink)

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Whats FtoP?

I like the general idea. He has a Q or a PP more often than a set. And that check probably gets an autobet from him.

Why do you raise so much without just pushing? Do you think hes so much of an idiot that he will push "to try and make you fold"?

gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?

Fnord

04-10-2006, 10:10 AM Post subject: Re: Want a straw to go with that float?

#3 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelion

Whats FtoP?

Fundamental Theorm of Poker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelion

Why do you raise so much without just pushing?

I pushed the turn. Converter hic-up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Pelion

04-10-2006, 11:45 AM

#4 (permalink)

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ah ok. I like it then.
Hes only calling with a hand that beats you but he doesn have a hand that beats you often enough for that to be a problem with that pot/stack size.

gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?

mcatdog

04-10-2006, 12:38 PM Post subject: Re: Want a straw to go with that float?

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

My opponent is kinda loose, tricky, difficult and aggressive.

How's my line? Standard?

It's standard for me against the type of player you described.

gabe

04-10-2006, 12:48 PM

#6 (permalink)

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gabe is an unknown quantity at this point

i use this line at least half the time

nutsinho

04-10-2006, 01:09 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt

Posts: 3,280

I like it

My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.

bair

04-10-2006, 02:23 PM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2005

Posts: 953

i dont really see your objective, please explain. does villain ever actually make this call with something you beat?? i think its quite obvious you have him beat...i like the turn check i just dont like the overbet. what are the disadvantages to calling and checking the river so he will fire another, you will get at least as much value as you did in the way you played it. or minraising? which is something i hate by the way but it seems pretty appropriate

piratepeaty

04-10-2006, 02:32 PM Post subject: Re: Want a straw to go with that float?

#9 (permalink)

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Join Date: Apr 2006

Posts: 121

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

, K

.
Fnord raises to $3, 1 fold, MP1 calls $3, 1 fold, MP3 calls $3, 4 folds.

Flop: ($10.50) 7

, Q

, 5

(3 players)
Fnord bets $8, MP1 folds, MP3 calls $8.

Turn: ($26.50) 9

(2 players)
Fnord checks, MP3 bets $15, Fnord raises to $89...

Ok, so you push the turn in the hopes that he?? calls? folds??

If he is a thinking player, he's not calling here with anything that you beat (maybe AQ.... maybe). And so you only fold worse hands.

I don't understand the play.... what am I missing?

Pelion

04-10-2006, 02:37 PM Post subject: Re: Want a straw to go with that float?

#10 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by piratepeaty

I took it as a drop the hammer play. There are alot of scare cards that could come on the river and Fnord is almost always ahead here in a pretty big pot. Why not get it all in when you know where you stand. Could be way off though.

gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?

Fnord

04-10-2006, 02:40 PM Post subject: Re: Want a straw to go with that float?

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelion

Yeah, that and quite often people surprise me with really terrible calls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

bair

04-10-2006, 02:42 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Join Date: May 2005

Posts: 953

well in that case, i dont like it...doesnt seem like there is much reason to make this play other than he MIGHT make a terrible call. i prefer a regular raise that he will call 80% of the time...i see no reason to play this hand differently than any other pot odds denying hand

Fnord

04-10-2006, 02:47 PM

#13 (permalink)

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What do you raise to?

Trivia Question: What would a perfect pot sized c/r be to?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

bair

04-10-2006, 02:52 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Posts: 953

i raise to 41.11 or 39.99

Warpe

04-10-2006, 02:54 PM

#15 (permalink)

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I pop it to 39.99 to make it look like it's on sale.

Fnord

04-10-2006, 03:06 PM

#16 (permalink)

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How big of a mistake would he be making calling that bet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Pelion

04-10-2006, 03:11 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Trivia Question: What would a perfect pot sized c/r be to?

Turn: ($26.50) 9

(2 players)
Fnord checks, MP3 bets $15, Fnord raises to $89...[/quote]

Pot is 26.50 + 15
= 41.50

You need to put in 15 to call

41.50 + 15 = 56.50

Pot size raise is to $56.50?

gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?

Fnord

04-10-2006, 03:15 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelion

Pot size raise is to $56.50?

71.50 per PLHE rules.

26.50 in the pot, 15 to go, call makes it 56.50.

15 + 56.50 = fuck it we're pot-struck anyway, push.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Pelion

04-10-2006, 03:21 PM

#19 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelion

Pot size raise is to $56.50?

71.50 per PLHE rules.

26.50 in the pot, 15 to go, call makes it 56.50.

15 + 56.50 = fuck it we're pot-struck anyway, push.

Yea I thought I missed a step but i couldnt figure out where it was.... you actually have to do the raise once you work out how big it is.

gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?

r8ed

04-10-2006, 03:30 PM

#20 (permalink)

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Looks like you may get a free card the next time you check a missed turn OOP and at the same time know your opp missed too. nh.

mcatdog

04-10-2006, 03:43 PM

#21 (permalink)

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I really don't agree with raising to only $40. If he re-raises you all-in, are you then going to fold having already put more than half your stack into the middle? If you're often investing half your stack without even seeing a showdown, that's just terrible poker IMO.

I always drop the hammer here, just like I would if I was bluffing, but most of the time when I do this I have the goods. You'd be surprised at how often I get called by complete junk.

This guy was just a LAG-tard, he wasn't tricky like the player Fnord described, but I would play the same against both types of players.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

UTG ($78.80)
MP ($229.45)
CO ($52.45)
Button ($55.35)
SB ($39)
Hero ($176.95)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4

, 5

.
2 folds, CO calls $1, 2 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: ($2.50) 5

, Q

, 4

(2 players)
Hero bets $2, CO calls $2.

Turn: ($6.50) 7

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $5, Hero raises to $44.45 , CO calls $44.45 (All-In).

River: ($105.40) 6

Final Pot: $105.40

Hero shows [4

] (two pair, Fives and Fours)
CO shows [T

] (high card Queen)

Warpe

04-10-2006, 03:46 PM

#22 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelion

Pot size raise is to $56.50?

71.50 per PLHE rules.

26.50 in the pot, 15 to go, call makes it 56.50.

15 + 56.50 = fuck it we're pot-struck anyway, push.

I think you just doubled this chronic underbettor's income.

bair

04-10-2006, 04:28 PM

#23 (permalink)

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Posts: 953

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcatdog

i think you misunderstood, the purpose of not raising so much is to either get a call or a raise...no one said anything anywhere about folding. if he raises AI its an instacall, mission accomplished.

dpe8598

04-10-2006, 06:38 PM

#24 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 261

Either your sure your ahead (get in more money!)
You're between 40-60% that you are ahead (keep pot managable)
or You think you are beat (fold)

I'm not sure where checking and then raising almost all in would fit into any of these scenarios. If you think you are ahead, this move shows a ton of strength and will get a fold, unless you are behind (especially if this guy is good)

If you think you may or may not be ahead, throw in a decent sized bet to establish the hand.

The only time I would make the move you made is to F*** with this guy if I play him a lot and I want to show the guy I'm serious and warm him not to try to steal too many pots from me. Here, I would push some money around and be a Gorilla. Otherwise, play it according to strength.

Fnord

04-10-2006, 06:47 PM

#25 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dpe8598

Either your sure your ahead (get in more money!)
You're between 40-60% that you are ahead (keep pot managable)
or You think you are beat (fold)

I don't get this logic. My thought process was I think I'm good on the turn and can't read his hand well enough to make a river +EV for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

dpe8598

04-10-2006, 06:52 PM

#26 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 261

You can't read his hand enough to make a river +ev? I'm sorry, but throwing in nearly all your stack, because you are afraid you are going to get outplayed on the river is a donk move. It seems like to me you are doing EXACTLY what this guy wants, and that is making his decision making process easier. You don't want to do that.

I like to think I play like this guy, you check on the turn and I'm taking a shot at that pot. After I do that, the very best thing you can do is raise me all in. That makes my decision easy. Fold.

If you really are ahead, get some money in the pot. I know you can't read his hand that well, but thats poker, its a game of probabilities and based on this guys aggressive/tricky profile, you are probably ahead. So keep betting. If he puts you all in, then make a decision. Is this a move he makes a lot and is a part of his profile. If so, then you are probably +ev to call. Otherwise, does he usually not risk all his chips but rather risks moderate amounts when being tricky, if so, maybe fold.

dpe8598

04-10-2006, 06:56 PM

#27 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 261

One last point, I think you've succeded here in making your decision easier, you basically risked all your chips! However, easier decisions aren't always the right decisions.

And if you find you can't play with this guy, change tables.

mcatdog

04-10-2006, 08:29 PM

#28 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dpe8598

I like to think I play like this guy, you check on the turn and I'm taking a shot at that pot. After I do that, the very best thing you can do is raise me all in. That makes my decision easy. Fold.

Not really. It only makes your decision easy if Fnord has at least an overpair every time he check-raise bombs the turn. If you're always folding to these check-raises, he can start playing big draws the same way.

Edit: His raise isn't even that much bigger than the pot. I'm really surprised that anyone thinks that's excessive. I almost think raising to $50 or so is even scarier to a good player, because it's so obvious that you're trying to get the rest in on the river.

dpe8598

04-10-2006, 10:17 PM

#29 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 261

Any raise that effectively puts you all in when only about 15% of your chips were previously committed is a huge raise no matter how you look at it.

As far as your concern that a specific guy may look at a moderate sized raise as suspicious, if you have that specific read and you believe you are ahead and you think he will call an all in, than by all means go all in.

Finally, as far as your comment that he might get a read on my pot steal and come back over the top on me w/ a draw, all the merrier. Stealing a pot w/ air accomplishes one thing, stealing the pot, he is more than welcome to come back over me w/ a draw and take it down. I'll wait until I at least have something to take him to the felt.

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