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samsonite2100
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06-14-2006, 05:04 PM
Post subject: Unusual Aces Hand
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Your loosing, lolololololololololol
Posts: 858
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50NL. Hero is in BB, fullstacked with :Ah::Ad:. Villain is in CO, also fullstacked. UTG, UTG+1, HJ and CO limp. Hero raises to $3.50. UTG and CO call. Pot=~$12
Flop-------:Jh:  ---------Hero bets $8. Villain raises to $16, Hero reraises to $24, Villain calls. Pot=$60
Turn------- ----------Hero pushes.
Is the flop the rare place where a minraise is good? I thought it was. Either I'm wa/wb. Minraising allows me to get a little more $ in the pot if villain is playing position w/ TP or is on a draw, while allowing me to get away w/ 1/2 a stack if villain pushes. His hesitant flat call, the turn rag, and my general read of the situation made me think my aces were good, so I shoved.
Now, tell me why I'm a retard...
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 1,242
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I'll tell you why your minraise is BAD : You're telling him exactly what you have. If he's sitting there with AJ, and you min re-reraise him. You're actually losing value because if he has half a brain he knows that you don't have KJ and he's NOT gonna push on the turn with TPTK. But since you've told him with your betting pattern that you have AA, he's only gonna push with something that kills you, which is why you have to fold.
Pushing to his reraise or 4betting or flat calling is better than the minraise. Anything but that!
Hope I didn't come down harsh, as I see what your thought process was. But though it may work 1 in 5 times against a fish in getting more value out of him, the other 19 times you're losing value by the info you're giving them.
Lemme guess, he had j9 soooted?
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Family Cruise IMO
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samsonite2100
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Your loosing, lolololololololololol
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Quote:
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You're actually losing value because if he has half a brain he knows that you don't have KJ and he's NOT gonna push on the turn with TPTK.
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I think you're giving Party fish way too much credit.
Also, I've used this same play with TPTK, when I feel I'm being bullied by someone who doesn't think I hit the flop. I don't see why I necessarily have AA here...
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
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Because when party fish do this to me, 99% of the time they have an overpair/set and I know I'm getting their stacks if I make my hand.
If you feel you're being bullied, why don't you 3-bet? Min-raising accomplishes absolutely nothing as even if you do have the best hand, you're asking him to draw out on you for cheap. Unless he's drawing absolutely dead, it's not a great play IMO.
But I could be very very wrong.
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Family Cruise IMO
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Hmmm. I actually think there is a huge change you're way ahead here sam. Him not pushing your raise to 24$ tells me he's not sitting on a set worried bout draws.
Unless he made 2 pair on turn (unlikely) I think your hand is good. And for once, I don't think min-raising was horrible, CONSIDERING STACK SIZES (don't think Rav considered this in above post).
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samsonite2100
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Your loosing, lolololololololololol
Posts: 858
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Quote:
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If you feel you're being bullied, why don't you 3-bet?
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Isn't what I did a 3bet minraise, or is my terminology fucked up?
To answer your question, 3betting hard in this spot is tantamount to pushing--A decent sized 3 bet, let's say $35-$40, totally pot commits me. This is a spot where I don't want to be pot-committed absent some shred of future info about his hand. Rightly or wrongly, I took his non-push following my 3bet as that shred of info.
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 1,242
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Hmm...I think you're right about the terminology. For some reason when I think 3-bet I think not only a rereraise but also 3x his raise or more  . I'm sure someone can clear it up but I think ur right.
As far as the hand goes..if you don't want to pot commit yourself why don't you just call? Doesn't the min-raise lend yourself to be in a stickier situation? I.e : You're folding if he comes over the top? What does his flat call of your min-raise tell you that you didn't already know? (or not know) Or are certain you have the best hand and are not folding at any point and are just trying to extract value. If that's the case then my bad and nh.
For some reason I just hate playing down to their level, min raising and playing cautious poker. I usually fall into check/call mode if I want a cheap showdown or I'm playing the hand aggressively from the get-go. In this case I think it called for agression. But again, just my opinion.
And I also don't know the table dynamics and game skill at this level like you do and that plays a huge factor. Sorry again if I came off harsh, I was more arguing with myself about the value of a minraise than criticizing your play.
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Family Cruise IMO
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Bear Bones
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06-14-2006, 07:12 PM
Post subject: Re: ugh
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#8 (permalink)
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 70
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ravageur
But though it may work 1 in 5 times against a fish in getting more value out of him, the other 19 times you're losing value by the info you're giving them.
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what about the other 38 times out of 5?
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samsonite2100
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Your loosing, lolololololololololol
Posts: 858
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Ravageur, you make some good points--trust me, no offense taken. Thanks for the analysis.
I agree with you on most of your general points. Maybe this was more of a feel play than anything (or maybe it was just bad). I mainly wanted to post this to get a little discussion going about if there's ever merit in minraising like this--it's such gospel that minraising is always bad, I wanted to see what folks thought.
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what about the other 38 times out of 5?
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Hahaha
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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HAHA this is a cool thread.
I truly think that considering the stack sizes this is not a bad fishy min-raise by sam. Look at the stacks. A hand like this with a lot of money already in the pot can be tough to manoeuvre, much the same as high-blinded situations at the end of sit n gos. I think the raise to 24 gives you exactly what you wanted sam. A chance to fold and get info from villain.
Btw LMAO at 38 times out of 5. Let me guess rav : u wrote 1 out of 5 times... so you had 20% running through your head... 20 - 1 = dadaaaa 19!
Ahhh... nothing like wasting time at work figuring what goes on in the minds of ftr poster nerds like me.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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I play sets like villain on the flop a lot. Oh you're confident? I min-raise. How confident are you? Oh you 3-bet? Your hand must be real good, and you're probably not drawing. I call. Come on Blank! CHA-CHING STACKED.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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drtofu66
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 595
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
I play sets like villain on the flop a lot. Oh you're confident? I min-raise. How confident are you? Oh you 3-bet? Your hand must be real good, and you're probably not drawing. I call. Come on Blank! CHA-CHING STACKED.
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I don't know what to make of minraises. Seems like on some sites, they minraise with monsters because they WANT a call, just like Rondavu is doing above. You dutifully put in a nice 3x to the minraise, they just call, now the turn comes a brick and you're first to act with 50% of your stack in there with an overpair. Now what? Check and declare "Uh, I only have TP?" Push and run headfirst into a set or 2 pair?
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Omg Rondavu minraises!
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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samsonite2100
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Your loosing, lolololololololololol
Posts: 858
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Quote:
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I play sets like villain on the flop a lot. Oh you're confident? I min-raise. How confident are you? Oh you 3-bet? Your hand must be real good, and you're probably not drawing. I call. Come on Blank! CHA-CHING STACKED.
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I take it you also minraise TP and other trash on the flop also, otherwise it would be pretty fucking easy to dodge your sets...
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