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bspahn

03-23-2006, 12:14 AM Post subject: ultra laydown

#1 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 851

this guy wasnt a muppet, he made some nice plays never saw him make a real dumb play. what would you do here?

Game # 284744434 - Texas Hold'em No Limit EUR 0,25/0,50 - Table "Trosa"
Game ended 2006-03-23 01:43:15 GMT+01:00

Players:
TheHomies (EUR 45,60 in seat 2)
brispahn (EUR 39,65 in seat 3)
starball (EUR 23,30 in seat 4)
Karmenito (EUR 50,65 in seat 6)

Dealer: Karmenito
Small Blind: TheHomies (0,25)
Big Blind: brispahn (0,50)

brispahn was dealt: Jh - Jd

starball Fold
Karmenito Fold
TheHomies Raise (0,75)
brispahn Raise (2,50)
TheHomies Call (2,00)

Flop Js - 7s - 9s

TheHomies Check
brispahn Bet (5,50)
TheHomies Raise (17,00)
brispahn Fold
TheHomies Payback (11,50)

TheHomies didn't show hand

TheHomies wins: EUR 16,15
Rake: EUR 0,85

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nutsinho

03-23-2006, 12:28 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt

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Blind vs Blind I would NEVER make this laydown. This spot when not a blind war could be a push, call, or fold depending on the opponent.

My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.

bdawg56kg

03-23-2006, 01:32 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Location: Honolulu

Posts: 1,201

This is a horrible laydown. What flop were you hoping for with JJ? Do you not think AsAx, KsKx, QsQx, AsKx, 77, 99 CR this flop? Even if he did flop a flush you still have a redraw to the nut boat. 4-handed this guy isn't playing like a nit, and neither should you. You were probably the victim of one of his "nice plays".

bspahn

03-23-2006, 02:29 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 851

did you both fail to notice my comment about the player. he doesnt make plays, he's tight, plays few hands, NEVER raised without having a hand, period.

if i had the hand again I might call and hope for the boat on the turn. if the turn is a club i check/fold, if it's not and he pushes i'll call, if he checks i'll try and check it down and hope for a river boat.

this isn't a terrible laydown. too many players call off their stack when they have a monster beaten by another monster!

Pelion

03-23-2006, 02:38 AM Post subject: Re: ultra laydown

#5 (permalink)

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Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 3,206

Quote:

Originally Posted by bspahn

did you both fail to notice my comment about the player.

You mean this one?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bspahn

this guy wasnt a muppet, he made some nice plays never saw him make a real dumb play. what would you do here?

What do you mean by "he made some nice plays"?

theres no way you can know you are behind after 1 checkraise, especially after a preflop raise. IMO its more likely he checkraised with AA, KK, QQ, 77, 99 (maybe some others) than believing he raised preflop with exactly 8T. Sure he could have the straight, but he could also have alot of other hands, and as has been said before, you have alot of outs if he does turn over a straight. I think you are almost always still ahead here, and I think most of those hands will stick around for another raise.

gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?

bspahn

03-23-2006, 02:45 AM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 851

the only real hand i saw him play was when he flopped the best hand raised accordingly but got sucked out unfortunately. he made no bad plays. i didnt mean he made a play at someone by bluffing etc.

he wouldnt' call a 3x reraise preflop with nothing, that's my point, i put him on the flush, simple as that. sure he could have an under set as well. AA/KK no way he'd reraise me before the flop.

Final guess is flush or lower set. Main issue i had was that I knew i'd be committed pretty quick by calling here since his raise is just over 1/3 of a full buyin at this level.

salsa4ever

03-23-2006, 04:01 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Melbourne

Posts: 1,073

sorry, this is really horrendous.

first, consider the dead money.

You have 8.50 in the pot. Effective stacks are 40. Not accounting for rake, were you to go all in you would put 31.50 in to win 80. Assuming your opponent has a flush, you'll win 30% of the time, so your equity is 24. So if you're wrong, it's at worst a 7.50 mistake.

Assuming that he's on air, and would fold if you pushed, you stand to gain 28. So he's only got to be bluffing one in 5 times for you to come out ahead. Now add the possibility of him calling with AA-QQ, an under-set, 2 pair, or just a draw. Now you can see how big a mistake it is to fold.

It's 4-handed.
If he happens to be in the SB while I'm in the BB in a blind war, where I flop top set and he simultaneously flops something that beats it, then more power to him. He wins my stack.

Now you say you have a read.
Firstly, as I explained above, your read would have to be so dead on it's not funny. You'd need to be able to put him on a .95 probability of having a made hand to find a fold. You've seen him show down one hand. That's not a good enough read. Now, even assume you have a correct read and this guy is a tight-ass. Would such a player raise you from the SB with T8o or Q2s and call another 5BB when raised?

So, there's no way you can have a read on someone being *that* tight. And even if you did, it would be most consistent with him having a hand like QQ or 99 or even an AJo.

You made a big mistake. But we all make them. I think you can't go too far wrong at the 50NL level if you never folded top set.

(How do I play it? With villain having put in half the effective stack, I'm happy to just push)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.

Quote:

Originally Posted by salsa4ever

well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?

bspahn

03-23-2006, 04:30 AM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 851

seems none of you are able to let go of a great hand. so i'm not 100% certain I was beat, and sure if he was a generic player there would be a large chance of him not having me beat there, i have a problem with people saying this is a mistake.

a mistake is laying down a hand that CANNOT be beat. imho i was a 2:1 dog here if I push, and frankly if you push here only the flush will call so there isn't really fold equity.

having discussed this with an *actual* pro it seems the right play is to EITHER fold or call, more leaning to a call and seeing what happens on the turn. period, done!

NLHE lahooozaher

03-23-2006, 04:44 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jan 2006

Posts: 916

Quote:

having discussed this with an *actual* pro it seems the right play is to EITHER fold or call, more leaning to a call and seeing what happens on the turn. period, done!

So you posted this because...?

Quote:

a mistake is laying down a hand that CANNOT be beat. imho i was a 2:1 dog here if I push, and frankly if you push here only the flush will call so there isn't really fold equity.

You're right this is never overcards+flushdraw or anything else. I'm a weak/tight/passive/nit and I play full ring and I'd call this. Realize my went to SD is only 17% and my W$SD is at 57% and I would still call this.

Quote:

i have a problem with people saying this is a mistake.

It is.

Greedo017

03-23-2006, 05:48 AM

#10 (permalink)

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Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot

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i guess i'll repeat for emphasis, folding is absolutely pathetic here. this is the worst play i've seen on any hand in a long time. i am raising here, every single time. and your *actual pro* sounds like a weak tight nit, otherwise you described the situation to him through weaktightnit colored glasses.

if you think you're too good for our advice why'd you bother asking just to be a waste of time.

i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch

NLHE lahooozaher

03-23-2006, 07:58 AM

#11 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2006

Posts: 916

Quote:

and your *actual pro* sounds

FWIW you could talk to me and say you talked to an "actual pro" since I play for a living with this being my only source of income but I also don't claim to be good just better than the majority of people I play against. So, to me anyways the talking to of an "actual pro" is actually retarded.

mxiu

03-23-2006, 10:05 AM

#12 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 982

This is honestly one of the weakest folds I've ever seen. As someone else said AsAx, KsKx, QsQx, smaller sets, the works. I pay off a flopped straight (HIGHLY unlikely) everytime here, and if by chance he flopped a flush, then you have 7 outs to fill up on the flop, or 10 on the turn. Easy call.

Fnord

03-23-2006, 10:08 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Posts: 19,336

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

This is a joke, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

mxiu

03-23-2006, 10:10 AM

#14 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 982

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

This is a joke, right?

Maybe he edited the results and he really called. =O Shenanigans!

bspahn

03-23-2006, 03:42 PM

#15 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 851

no joke no. i'd call any other player at this low level. in this case i'd say perhaps 50% i was beat by the flush. so i have 32.5% if i push but it's either a fold or a call here.

bspahn

03-23-2006, 03:43 PM

#16 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 851

just in case some of you think i dont call if i have a good hand but opp MIGHT have a better hand:

Game # 284462214 - Texas Hold'em No Limit EUR 0.25/0.50 - Table "Nora"

Players:
Anchorman (EUR 80.65 in seat 1)
AXELEN (EUR 34.40 in seat 2)
brispahn (EUR 50.50 in seat 3)
Fredlander (EUR 48.50 in seat 4)
fishcrowax (EUR 23.20 in seat 5)
Moonold (EUR 51.43 in seat 6)

Dealer: Fredlander
Small Blind: fishcrowax (0.25)
Big Blind: Moonold (0.50)

brispahn was dealt: Td - Ts

Anchorman Call (0.50)
AXELEN Fold
brispahn Call (0.50)
Fredlander Fold
fishcrowax Call (0.25)
Moonold Check

Flop 5c - Ad - Th

fishcrowax Check
Moonold Check
Anchorman Check
brispahn Bet (1.50)
fishcrowax Fold
Moonold Call (1.50)
Anchorman Fold

Turn 5c - Ad - Th - 8h

Moonold Check
brispahn Bet (3.25)
Moonold Call (3.25)

River 5c - Ad - Th - 8h - Qh

Moonold Bet (10.00)
brispahn Call (10.00)

Moonold shows: Ah - 2h (a flush, ace high)

brispahn didn't show hand

Moonold wins: EUR 29.95 (with a flush, ace high)

------------------
Game # 284483765 - Texas Hold'em No Limit EUR 0.25/0.50 - Table "Stocksund"

Players:
Kenta031 (EUR 38.55 in seat 1)
+Paulyten+ (EUR 77.59 in seat 2)
battaratt* (EUR 56.35 in seat 3)
brispahn (EUR 75.33 in seat 4)
filipppa16 (EUR 73.65 in seat 5)
Hagel68 (EUR 60.80 in seat 6)

Dealer: brispahn
Small Blind: filipppa16 (0.25)
Big Blind: Hagel68 (0.50)

brispahn was dealt: Qd - Qs

Kenta031 Fold
+Paulyten+ Fold
brispahn Raise (1.50)
filipppa16 Fold
Hagel68 Call (1.00)

Flop 9h - 8c - Tc

Hagel68 Check
brispahn Bet (3.25)
Hagel68 Call (3.25)

Turn 9h - 8c - Tc - Js

Hagel68 Check
brispahn Bet (7.75)
Hagel68 Call (7.75)

River 9h - 8c - Tc - Js - 5c

Hagel68 Bet (8.00)
brispahn Call (8.00)

Hagel68 shows: Ac - Kc (a flush, ace high)

brispahn didn't show hand

Hagel68 wins: EUR 39.25 (with a flush, ace high)

nutsinho

03-23-2006, 04:20 PM

#17 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt

Posts: 3,280

You clearly have little to no concept of fold equity, pot equity, hand ranges, etc. so you should do more listening to why it was a bad laydown and less talking about how great a laydown it was.

My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.

bspahn

03-23-2006, 04:27 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 851

no fold equity here, not the type of hand for it.

next time ill call, check/fold turn if 4th club, call if no club and he pushes (likely put him on lower set)

bair

03-23-2006, 04:57 PM

#19 (permalink)

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Join Date: May 2005

Posts: 953

assuming he is as tight as you say, chances are if he has the flush, its the nut flush. therefore he would probably slowplay it. flopping a flush is unlikely enough at a full table, let alone 4 handed, and you have plenty of outs to a boat/quads. weak weak weak

and if you post a hand on here, you're obviously asking for it to be critiqued. instead you insult the people who answered who i can guarantee have a higher winrate than yourself.

and those other 2 hands you posted are completely different. all information points to them having a flush draw and hitting it. posting hands that you should have laid down doesnt make your first hand look any better.

bspahn

03-23-2006, 05:15 PM

#20 (permalink)

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Posts: 851

hind sight makes your decision much easier doesnt it. pretty much have to call both river bets, even if just to get information on the player.

rarely do i post and i apologize and potentially insulting some of your responses, however I'm also saddened by the fact that most of you are berating me and the play i made.

critizice and share advice, but comments like joke and stupid and this is wrong are useless if you're trying to help someone's play.

Warpe

03-23-2006, 05:30 PM

#21 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Canuckistan

Posts: 3,905

You asked..

Quote:

Originally Posted by bspahn

what would you do here?

They answered..

Quote:

Originally Posted by bspahn

most of you are berating me and the play i made.

And this you just have to get used to...

Quote:

Originally Posted by bspahn

comments like joke and stupid and this is wrong

FTRers pull no punches. That may seem a little harsh, but if you're going to wade into the swamp you have to be prepared for the possibility of alligators.

STIdrivr

03-23-2006, 05:51 PM

#22 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Southern california

Posts: 580

Quote:

Originally Posted by bspahn

he wouldnt' call a 3x reraise preflop with nothing, that's my point, i put him on the flush, simple as that. sure he could have an under set as well. AA/KK no way he'd reraise me before the flop.

See I would be more likely to put someone who would call a preflop raise with nothing (i.e sooted cards) on the made flush before this tight guy. If he has suited cards than it is going to be a big suited ace so that takes away a lot of possible hands that beat you expecially cause he cant have A J suited for a flush so that pretty much narrows it to AQs and AKs. Then add in the fact that there is a .84% chance to flop a flush, and i would put the tight guy on something like QQ with a flush draw or a set before a floped flush. Tight people will raise with a hand like TT - QQ and just call a re-raise to make sure the flop is safe, even 4 handed heads up.

salsa4ever

03-23-2006, 09:16 PM

#23 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Melbourne

Posts: 1,073

Quote:

Originally Posted by bspahn

no joke no. i'd call any other player at this low level. in this case i'd say perhaps 50% i was beat by the flush. so i have 32.5% if i push but it's either a fold or a call here...

critizice and share advice, but comments like joke and stupid and this is wrong are useless if you're trying to help someone's play.

I take offense.

I'd like to say we're friends, and I called it as I saw it. You haven't even taken the time to reply to my points.

Besides, your math is off. Lets assume you're COMPLETELY right. 50% he has the flush. 50% he doesn't and he folds.

Well, you win what's in the pot 50% of the time! The pot's got $28 in it! When he has a flush, you got 32.5% and as explained you lose 8.50

Under your assumptions, pushing has a +EV of (0.5)(28)+(0.5)(-8.5) = about $10.

Why do i push? 'cos I don't want him drawing to the flush if that's what he's on. It's debatable whether pushing or calling is the play. But as long as we don't fold, I'm happy

bspahn

03-23-2006, 09:27 PM

#24 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 851

sorry mate. your points and math were fine, I think i prefer calling though as I figure if I push only the flush will call.

similar to the reasoning of why bet the river with a made hand if a weaker hand would fold and only a better hand call.

bair

03-23-2006, 09:31 PM

#25 (permalink)

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Join Date: May 2005

Posts: 953

someone with a pair and the flush draw will probably call, 2-pair, and a straight + flush draw

Miffed22001

03-23-2006, 10:36 PM

#26 (permalink)

Straight Flush

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Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!

Posts: 8,181

omfg (post whore) call/poosh.
Which ever takes your fancy.

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