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Two deep stack pushes

  
 
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Miffed22001
Old 06-05-2006, 05:14 PM     Post subject: Two deep stack pushes #1 (permalink)  
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 Hand1.
Been sat down for 10minutes, busted two tagg players who thought they're unimproved pps on low boards were good, they werent. Opp seems taggy, but has some donkish tendencies. Possible bad decision maker in big bet situations.

100NL 6max (200bbs buy in max)
Villain is HJ with $311
Miff is Button with $434

Preflop.
Villain raises to $5 (standard)
Miff reraises to $20 with
Villain calls

Flop
:Th:
Villain bets $301 and is all in
Miff calls (without even thinking)

Problems.
Preflop i reraised large because of stack size. Good/bad? (Note: a $5 preflop raise is standard here because of interface)
Flop is an insta-call right? What is opps range here? Why push, what is that telling me?
My only reason to post this is the stack depth, with 100bbs this isnt even a decision.

Hand2.
200nl full ring.
Opp seems a decent slaggy type player 21/13. His disadvantage at this table is me sat behind him, im deep stacked so im prepared to play big pots and i have also opened up my reraising range against his range because of table image. I got off my QQ against his KK about 10 hands earlier on a nice flop, but it cost me about $150. I havent floated on his range postflop but we played one big pot where i bluffed the river hard and he folded. I was pretty sure for a second he was going to make a great call with ace high but he didnt have the balls i dont think. This opp has my respect.

Villain is MP2 with $556
Miff is button with $725

Preflop
Folded to villain
Villain raises to $8
Miff reraises to $26 with :Ad: :Qd:
Villain calls.

Flop. (pot ~$50)
:Qh:
Villain checks
Miff ?
How do you play this? Whats a strategy for later streets, what is villians expected range?
Id argue a typical reraise range may like this flop.

Miff bets $38
Villain calls.

Turn (Pot ~$130)

Complete blank.
Villain checks
Miff bets $80
Villain calls

River (Pot ~$290)
:Ah:
Villain bets all in
Miff ?
I have more than $500 left behind pot is about $600-700.
I want to make this call
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KingLizard
Old 06-05-2006, 06:02 PM #2 (permalink)  
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I'll add my two cents but keep in mind ... I'd lose my mind at these stakes. I would put the villain on AK and perhaps A Js (could also have A Q). The PFR call suggests to me AK and the allin on the river says he thinks TPTK is gonna go. If he had a set, I would have expected some aggression on the flop or turn. I would call.

However, he could have AA but seeing his aggressive stats I would have expected a reraise on your preflop raise.

Just the thoughts from a 25NL player.
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joshuadzl
Old 06-05-2006, 06:16 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Hand 1: My instincts tell me flush draw. Any other hand they're shooting to milk. If they have a flush draw and they put you on overpair, they're just under a coinflip and with stacks that deep I can see someone taking that flip. I don't see anyone fearing the flush draw on this board by pushing, especially heads up. Doesn't add up. I could very well be way off base here with this though. If you have history with them making questionable pushes, I could see them with a set/overpair pushing but like you said you don't. Edit: With that said, I'm probably calling here.

Guy I play with daily outplayed me last night this way. He pushed on a questionable hand earlier in the night, I called and he caught up. When we went heads later that night and I had an overpair and he did the same instapush move, only this time he had top set to my overpair. He wouldn't have made that same move had he not done what had happened prior. I got outplayed.

Late for a meeting but I'll follow up with hand 2 in a bit.
 
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Lukie
Old 06-05-2006, 07:07 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 hand 1:
Quote:
Miff calls (without even thinking)
I'm not so sure insta-calling a $300 push in a $40 pot with just an overpair when you have clearly defined your hand preflop is such a good play. Now, against this guy's range (which is anybody's guess here), calling very well could be correct, but this is certainly a decision you can give a little thought to, no?

I'm guessing he showed TT.


hand 2: check behind turn, not being results oriented. The flop is drawless outside of an unlikely 65 and this isn't a hand you want to play a massive massive pot with.

There's a smudge over 400 left on the river.

Given his push, you only beat a bluff here, and you split with a possible AQ. This isn't AK, ever. Don't kid yourself.

I'd probably call here. I'm not sure what the best play is though to be honest.
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Miffed22001
Old 06-05-2006, 07:32 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
hand 1:
Quote:
Miff calls (without even thinking)
I'm not so sure insta-calling a $300 push in a $40 pot with just an overpair when you have clearly defined your hand preflop is such a good play. Now, against this guy's range (which is anybody's guess here), calling very well could be correct, but this is certainly a decision you can give a little thought to, no?

I'm guessing he showed TT.


hand 2: check behind turn, not being results oriented. The flop is drawless outside of an unlikely 65 and this isn't a hand you want to play a massive massive pot with.

There's a smudge over 400 left on the river.

Given his push, you only beat a bluff here, and you split with a possible AQ. This isn't AK, ever. Don't kid yourself.

I'd probably call here. I'm not sure what the best play is though to be honest.
He insta-puhsed 300bbs. You really think he wants me to call? I wasnt sure... I think he didnt, gut feeling.

I wanted to play a big pot with this guy in hand 2 because i thought i would eventually push him into a post flop mistake for the lot, thats why i bet the turn. Thinking on that line, if i check behind on the turn (and id argue the river gives me a semi-hidden hand as not enough players reraise AQs here against this type of opponent) and then opp open pushes the river, is it still a fold/call ?
Adding to that, how much would you expect to be able to call on the river if the turn is checked but you wont call the push.

I guess id better add that this site is fishy at these limits, horribly so at times.
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joshuadzl
Old 06-05-2006, 08:29 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Check call Check call push is a standard line for a set. I fear the river suckered you in.
 
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Rondavu
Old 06-05-2006, 08:37 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Opp shows AK clubs
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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KingLizard
Old 06-05-2006, 08:37 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
Given his push, you only beat a bluff here, and you split with a possible AQ. This isn't AK, ever. Don't kid yourself.
OK ... so I don't kid myself ... help me understand (trying to learn here) why this is NEVER AK. Thanks for the help.
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Warpe
Old 06-05-2006, 08:44 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingLizard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
Given his push, you only beat a bluff here, and you split with a possible AQ. This isn't AK, ever. Don't kid yourself.
OK ... so I don't kid myself ... help me understand (trying to learn here) why this is NEVER AK. Thanks for the help.
If it was, he's put in $145 before the river without a hand.
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KingLizard
Old 06-05-2006, 09:01 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingLizard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
Given his push, you only beat a bluff here, and you split with a possible AQ. This isn't AK, ever. Don't kid yourself.
OK ... so I don't kid myself ... help me understand (trying to learn here) why this is NEVER AK. Thanks for the help.
If it was, he's put in $145 before the river without a hand.
OK ... it's probably the difference in stakes because I see that all the time at 25NL. Thanks for the response.
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Miffed22001
Old 06-05-2006, 09:05 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 <joshuadzl> The check\call is *so* dangerous at these 200 and sub stakes

Telling statement from Josh in IRC.
When i bet the flop i had three thoughts when villain called
1. Thinks i missed with AK and is gona try to take it away
2. Opened with a PP and flopped a set
3. Split with AQ (unlikely preflop call but possible)

When he called the turn i was pretty sure i was either well behind and going to get bombed on the river or opp thought i had a monster and had a strong hand but was wary of what i had, something like JJ/TT perhaps IF he puts me on the missed AK.
Again, as Josh noted in IRC, what the fuck do i actually beat here if opp puts me on the queen? That was my difficulty. I think thats my best arguement for betting the turn i needed raising to get away from what i had.
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yorib
Old 06-05-2006, 10:04 PM #12 (permalink)  
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I'm basing my guess on your implied respect for your opponent and big laydowns occuring previously.

Given the pre-flop betting it seems like villian has 99+/AK/AQs. I'm not eliminated AA/KK/QQ because villian may fear either losing you with AA or being dominated by you having AA (and tossing out a 3rd raise).

Villian check/call on flop suggests that he belives the flop didn't help you, or he has a monster. This suggests he has AA/KK/QQ/JJ. If he's seen you c-bet routinesly, than he may give it no credit.

Villian check/call on turn may be due to your slightly weaker turn bet. I think it's reasonable for V to think that he has you beat, but doesn't want to reveal the strength of his hand.

The river is very perlexing. Him pushing would imply that he really wants you to fold. Remember you guys haven't shown down a hand yet inspite of all the betting. That has to mean that the A doesn't help him. I can't invision that QQ wouldn't want to place a more reasonable bet to see what you do, and AA would do the same thing trying to lure more $$. It almost seems like he has to have KK and was convinced you had AK/JJ/TT and is trying to push you off of AK at the risk of losing a bet from JJ/TT.

Of course, as a low stakes player, I could be completely wrong.
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Ravageur
Old 06-05-2006, 10:30 PM     Post subject: Tough.. #13 (permalink)  
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Hand 1 :
Against the Party fish who probably got that stack bad beating ppl, this is an insta-call. Without a read it's an obv fold but you have the read you need to make the call. The guy has K10 SOOTED more often than he has top set here. Just sucks that it's so deep stacked and it'll hurt to pay off the set or rivered flush.

Hand 2 :
I think this is a clear fold. You're playing for a split and 70% of the time the guy slowplayed his set on this dry dry board. He's hoping you have aq, ak etc with that river push.

I came across a similar hand last night on party 200 NL 6 max. I had KJs and called a button raise. Flop came J high, no draw etc. Villain c-bet, I smooth called. Turn is an ace, Villain checks, i check behind. River is another J giving me trip Js. He goes AI for 150$ into a 50$ pot. I told him in the chat that he had pocket aces, and I folded and he turned them over. This is a common play at these stakes. Overbetting the pot when a good card for you comes up instead of value betting. These half-decent players think that the party fish (they assume we are them) will pay off their sets.

Post the results soon?
Family Cruise IMO
 
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joshuadzl
Old 06-05-2006, 10:41 PM     Post subject: Re: Tough.. #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravageur
Hand 1 :
Against the Party fish who probably got that stack bad beating ppl, this is an insta-call. Without a read it's an obv fold but you have the read you need to make the call. The guy has K10 SOOTED more often than he has top set here. Just sucks that it's so deep stacked and it'll hurt to pay off the set or rivered flush.
I disagree. KT suited chasing what, runner runner diamond? Do you really think he is pushing KT here thinking his top pair king kicker is good? Edit: And I'm with you on hand2.
 
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Cocco_Bill
Old 06-05-2006, 10:45 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Hand 2: check turn
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joshuadzl
Old 06-05-2006, 10:56 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yorib
I'm basing my guess on your implied respect for your opponent and big laydowns occuring previously.

Given the pre-flop betting it seems like villian has 99+/AK/AQs. I'm not eliminated AA/KK/QQ because villian may fear either losing you with AA or being dominated by you having AA (and tossing out a 3rd raise).

Villian check/call on flop suggests that he belives the flop didn't help you, or he has a monster. This suggests he has AA/KK/QQ/JJ. If he's seen you c-bet routinesly, than he may give it no credit.

Villian check/call on turn may be due to your slightly weaker turn bet. I think it's reasonable for V to think that he has you beat, but doesn't want to reveal the strength of his hand.

The river is very perlexing. Him pushing would imply that he really wants you to fold. Remember you guys haven't shown down a hand yet inspite of all the betting. That has to mean that the A doesn't help him. I can't invision that QQ wouldn't want to place a more reasonable bet to see what you do, and AA would do the same thing trying to lure more $$. It almost seems like he has to have KK and was convinced you had AK/JJ/TT and is trying to push you off of AK at the risk of losing a bet from JJ/TT.

Of course, as a low stakes player, I could be completely wrong.
I like your logic on every street except the river. Villian has history with hero. Can he really put hero on AK missed? Is he going to make this bet with this read? I think we have to assume villian is giving hero more respect than this. I think if Villian is holding JJ/TT that hand went into the muck immediately on the turn. If he is trying to get OPP off a hand unimproved, he is C/R the flop or the turn to not let them catch up. I think your line of AA\KK\QQ is more relevant here. Also, in an unraised pot, I can put player on that raise with any PP if he is aggressive which means 77/44 is a concern here as well.

With that said, the range of hands we can put opponent on by the river:
AA, KK, QQ, 77, 44, AQ.

Obviously this assumes he wasn't bluffing, but I think its obvious this line was never a bluff. I stand behind that I think MIffed was beat on all streets here and the river just hung him out to dry.
 
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Miffed22001
Old 06-06-2006, 02:07 AM #17 (permalink)  
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 Hand2 Opp shows AA
Played his table image nicely, yet i managed to time out on the call for my chips. I didnt call, somehow.

As to the arguement to check the turn here, how much do you concievably call on the river? If i improve to top two and opp still pushes do i call, can i raise a a seeming value bet? (against bad opps i normally do anyway after checking a turn i like)
Similarily, if its checked to me do i bet (im playing an opponent who i think is capable of a c/r here if he knows that card hit me)
As a counter arguement, once i get called on the flop i need information. With my likely holding if i check the turn (AK) will i simply get bet for value or will opp really stick it to me (i think AQ is well hidden here, its tough for opp to put me on the queen) of course it is 200nl so maybe thats not strictly true.
I also hate checking cards when my hand may not be ultra vulnerable but i need to use pot control. I also hate missing bets when i feel my hand is best. I was only concerned i was beat once i got called through two streets by a player oop whos play i respected.
But again, if opp pushes river or pots it do i call?
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midas06
Old 06-06-2006, 04:12 AM #18 (permalink)  
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What site lets you play with insta deep stacks?
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Lukie
Old 06-06-2006, 05:47 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingLizard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
Given his push, you only beat a bluff here, and you split with a possible AQ. This isn't AK, ever. Don't kid yourself.
OK ... so I don't kid myself ... help me understand (trying to learn here) why this is NEVER AK. Thanks for the help.
AK would have to call the reraise preflop, then check/call 2 streets with ace high and no draw, then open push the river for a huge bet with a TPTK that beats surprisingly little.

I mean nobody is saying it's possible, but not many players are that bad to play AK like that...
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Lukie
Old 06-06-2006, 05:48 AM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
hand 1:
Quote:
Miff calls (without even thinking)
I'm not so sure insta-calling a $300 push in a $40 pot with just an overpair when you have clearly defined your hand preflop is such a good play. Now, against this guy's range (which is anybody's guess here), calling very well could be correct, but this is certainly a decision you can give a little thought to, no?

I'm guessing he showed TT.


hand 2: check behind turn, not being results oriented. The flop is drawless outside of an unlikely 65 and this isn't a hand you want to play a massive massive pot with.

There's a smudge over 400 left on the river.

Given his push, you only beat a bluff here, and you split with a possible AQ. This isn't AK, ever. Don't kid yourself.

I'd probably call here. I'm not sure what the best play is though to be honest.
He insta-puhsed 300bbs. You really think he wants me to call? I wasnt sure... I think he didnt, gut feeling.
if he understands risk/reward, yes and fold.

if he's a donkey and will do this with worse hands, no and call.
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Fnord
Old 06-06-2006, 05:50 AM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midas06
What site lets you play with insta deep stacks?
Absolute.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Lukie
Old 06-06-2006, 06:09 AM #22 (permalink)  
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 btw miffed, the point i was trying to make in my first post wasn't that you should never call in that spot with KK, it was that you should never call without thinking there. Take some time to make sure you make a good decision when faced with a 3-buyin bet, that's all.
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Lukie
Old 06-06-2006, 06:10 AM #23 (permalink)  
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 btw, did you post results for the first hand yet? I read through the thread pretty quickly and saw that he had AA in the 2nd hand, which is what I was expecting tbh. AA/QQ/AQ/something else, in that order.
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Miffed22001
Old 06-06-2006, 11:33 AM #24 (permalink)  
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 hand 1 opp shows Akhearts and sucks the turn and Miff cried

Add tribeca to that list fnord
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Miffed22001
Old 06-06-2006, 11:36 AM #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
hand 1 opp shows Akhearts and sucks the turn and Miff cried

Add tribeca to that list fnord
Opp was bad enough in hand 1 that he would have pushed JJ/QQ or a flush draw with overs here rather than the nuts. He just wasnt smart enough to put me on cards that would never fold that flop if he flopped a set and he wasnt raising middle pps so a set was pretty much outta the question. If he'd turned his cards and moved all in i would still have called.
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