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Fnord
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01-03-2006, 09:28 AM
Post subject: Turn screw
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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100NL, usual fishing hole
My table image is sTAgg, taking down lots of pots without showdown.
Loose/passive folder limps ($81), similar player follows, I limp on the button with J T ($117), SB (semi-tight, under-bets, tricky post-flop) completes($113), tight/passive BB checks.
5 to the flop $5 in the pot
K J T
SB bets $1.75, BB folds, EP calls, MP folds, I call
3 to the turn $10.25 in the pot
3
SB bets $1.75, EP calls, I raise to $15...
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Pingviini
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 1,090
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I dont quite get the flop call. lots of draws and if you just call there are shitloads of cards that will hurt you. You worried him slowplaying here? if he is tricky he can have just about anything here but this a hand where I want to know where I am at on the flop because of all the possible draws you can imagine.
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"Poker is a simple math game" -Aba20
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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I guess you play the flop to hit the turn hard and punish the chasers? Also it reps the straight, probably not the AQ but Q9. Nobody can guess that the turn hit you so the play looks strong and suggests that drawers ought to get outta this pot. I like it i think as an option to getting a lot of money in on the flop with a lot of scary cards to come and the potentia lto already be beat. I think BB is chasing the flush not sure about sb, he may have the straight or just top pair here. Betting OOP suggests strength or drawing. I play it the same but im not sure how much i like this if someone fires back or we see the river.
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finky
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 270
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You could be in a lot of trouble on the flop and if your not already beated you could get drawn out. A pot sizes reraise probably won't get a lot of folds as there could be some big (12+) draws or pair draw combos as well as a possible sloplay/suckerbet from the SB.
Not getting too much in early looks a good way of getting out cheap if things get heavy as well as masking your hand, The lack of action on the turn indicates no-one is protecting a big hand (higher 2 pair / trips) against a flush so its the perfect time to strike. The overbet makes it look like a bluff (that 3 could'nt have helped, why didnt you raise the flop) and could get a call from a much weaker hand while spanking the draws.
I take it you would quietly dump to a proper bet it if an A,Q,K,9 or club hit the turn.
I think its a great play, am I close?
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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I like it all the way. Not a bad price to potentially fill up on the turn for a cheap price either...
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pingviini
I dont quite get the flop call. lots of draws and if you just call there are shitloads of cards that will hurt you.
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This is how I feel. With 2-pair on a very scarey board like this I would be playing it as if I have AA and want to eliminate all drawing hands. Make a pot sized bet and hope that AK calls or re-raises.
I'd be taking this pot down on the flop or at most on the turn.
I slowplay when I have a monster (straight, nutflush), or a set on an unscarey board. With a set on a board like this I would be playing it strong. With 2-pair on a board like this I'd play it strong like I'm drawing to a full-house. Too many cards can hurt you on he turn and river.
I'll only slowplay 2-pair on a rag of a flop (including a flop with an ace).
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finky
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 270
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BankItPayette
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pingviini
I dont quite get the flop call. lots of draws and if you just call there are shitloads of cards that will hurt you.
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This is how I feel. With 2-pair on a very scarey board like this I would be playing it as if I have AA and want to eliminate all drawing hands. Make a pot sized bet and hope that AK calls or re-raises.
I'd be taking this pot down on the flop or at most on the turn.
I slowplay when I have a monster (straight, nutflush), or a set on an unscarey board. With a set on a board like this I would be playing it strong. With 2-pair on a board like this I'd play it strong like I'm drawing to a full-house. Too many cards can hurt you on he turn and river.
I'll only slowplay 2-pair on a rag of a flop (including a flop with an ace). |
I may be wrong, but I don't think this was a typical sloplay, more like drawing to dead cards. Raising does have its merits but another re-raise would be painfull and the (probable) calls would be problamatic if one of the very many scare cards hit the turn. I don't think a pot sized bet would scare off many possible limped holdings such as KQ, QJ, Q10, Kxc or Axc as they all have 13+ outs to beat us and they know it.
Its unlikley that AK is out there as there was no raise pre-flop so at best if someone calls we are a slight favorite against the hands mentioned above or a big dog to other possible holdings such as K10, KJ, a set or a straight. Why not wait till the turn when drawing hands will look a lot weaker and made hand will be more likley to show strength before deciding how to continue?
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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Nice Hand
You don't raise the flop because you fear SB may be underbetting a hand that owns yours and you don't want to get into it this early in the hand with him and lose control of the pot. You want to see the turn, hopefully a blank, and his reaction to it.
The turn is a complete blank and SB fires again weakly, getting smooth called again by the other opp...At this point I'm putting SB on exactly KQ and other guy a flush draw...so you make an overbet to properly drive out those draws and end the hand winning a decent pot. If SB is holding KJ/KT/TT you will be able to showdown without putting more $ in the pot; he may even fold KT. If he raises you, you make the easy fold.
Though the flop is messy and some players would raise the flop to find out where they stand, I love just calling this flop to make sure the board remains somewhat playable after the turn and to control pot size.
Ni Han Fnord
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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bdawg56kg
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 1,201
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How do you say it Fnord? Ni Han Sir.
I like the way you played this hand. Sure there are a lot of draws out there, but I think that is exactly the reason Fnord decided to smooth call the flop (and the fact that he has position). He wanted to peel a safe turn card, then get a lot of money into the pot. If villian has a hand like Qx of clubs or KQ, Fnord is almost a coinflip on the flop, but if he peels a safe turn card, then jams the pot, he is now putting money in while being around a 65-70% favorite, plus he has position. Also think about this. If either of villians had KQ or Qx of clubs and Fnord raises the flop up to $10 or so, I think one if not both of these hands would push and Fnord would have no choice but to fold. But do you think KQ and Qx of clubs 3-bet pushes on the turn? I don't think so.
I think raising the flop is the standard play, and by no means wrong, but I think this is one of those "thinking outside the box" plays that can be more effective in the right situation. However, I do think that $15 might be a bit much. $10-12 accomplishes the same thing IMO.
I believe there is a post on 2+2 about bottom 2 pair theory, and a lot of them liked the idea of peeling a safe turn before getting lots of money in.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Pot size and effective stack sizes are very important here. If the pot is larger or the stacks are shorter, then I have to gamble it up on the flop.
I was hoping to draw a bigger turn bet from a busted draw.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by finky
I take it you would quietly dump to a proper bet it if an A,Q,K,9 or club hit the turn.
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Yup. Maybe play some poker, but probably dump.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bdawg56kg
However, I do think that $15 might be a bit much. $10-12 accomplishes the same thing IMO.
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My call brings the pot up to about $15, so I'm still raising to about pot. In a small pot like this I like to make sure I'm potting it because of the implied odds draws have. I also want to put "made" hands to the test.
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