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KingLizard
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06-24-2006, 12:20 AM
Post subject: TPTK ... how would you have played this flop
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 296
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Only 2 orbits at the table but my HUD stats on the villain had him at 33 / 13. I had not seen any of his hands go to showdown so I did not have a good handle on his actual range. What would be your play on the flop? I realize some (perhaps many) would suggest a fold to the PFR reraise.
PokerRoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25NL (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Button ($23.55)
SB ($28.10)
BB ($26.00)
UTG ($6.40)
UTG+1 ($23.00)
UTG+2 ($52.75)
MP1 (Villain)/ ($8.90)
MP2 ($14.25)
MP3 ($2.25)
Hero ($23.20)
Preflop: Hero is CO with Q , A .
3 folds, MP1 (Villain)/ calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.5, 1 fold, SB calls $1.35, 1 fold, MP1 (Villain)/ raises to $2.75, Hero calls $1.25, SB calls $1.25.
Flop: ($8.50) 4 , Q, T (3 players)
SB checks, Villain bets $2, Hero ???
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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flat call, not too worried.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 923
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I would make it 4 on the flop, bet out 6 on the turn if checked too, then check the river. That would be the line I would take. I would try to not show weakness, as this might induce villain to make an out of line bet. Sometimes the flat call can make an out of position raiser play kinda nuts, especially if he thinks you are drawing or something.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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4 on the flop?
plz. he can t fold a pair to that raise on flop.
make it 9 to go, fold if he pushes over top.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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KingLizard
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 296
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
4 on the flop?
plz. he can t fold a pair to that raise on flop.
make it 9 to go, fold if he pushes over top.
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That's what I did and put the villain all in. He flips over KK. Another player says "that was obvious" and "I put him on AA" ... blah blah blah.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by KingLizard
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
4 on the flop?
plz. he can t fold a pair to that raise on flop.
make it 9 to go, fold if he pushes over top.
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That's what I did and put the villain all in. He flips over KK. Another player says "that was obvious" and "I put him on AA" ... blah blah blah. |
You missed the fold part.
As much as we know players should be reraising preflop with a wider range, at these stakes it's almost always AA/KK against the avg. player.
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 923
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Quote:
4 on the flop?
plz. he can t fold a pair to that raise on flop.
make it 9 to go, fold if he pushes over top.
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The point isn't to get opp to fold it's to take the lead on the turn. Subsitute 4 for 5 or 6 or whatever you like. This is just one line I would consider playing.
This is interesting though. When you play NLHE are you always making bets with the intention of making your opponent fold? Wouldn't that mean that you are always overplaying your hand? I think your going to find your self getting pot committed quite often like that.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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you bet cuz u want to push ppl off a hand or cuz u want info or cuz u want a worse hand to call.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 923
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nm, thought you might have something more in depth to say.
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lonnie
I would make it 4 on the flop, bet out 6 on the turn if checked too, then check the river. That would be the line I would take. I would try to not show weakness, as this might induce villain to make an out of line bet. Sometimes the flat call can make an out of position raiser play kinda nuts, especially if he thinks you are drawing or something.
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I think you missed the size of your opponents stack, making it for would leave him $2.15. Regardless of stack sizes I dont like a minraise there and would just push.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
4 on the flop?
plz. he can t fold a pair to that raise on flop.
make it 9 to go, fold if he pushes over top.
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Why would we want him to fold a pair?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
You missed the fold part.
As much as we know players should be reraising preflop with a wider range, at these stakes it's almost always AA/KK against the avg. player.
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As played I think it would be horrible to fold this on the flop. I think if you are finding a fold anywhere it would have to be preflop. Against a shortstack who has been lagg I am pushing this flop, the SB complicates it a little so an argument could be made for calling to see how he reacts, but I dont think we can fold.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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my bad. wasn t aware of shorty's stack. I fold preflop or pay him off.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Oh Lonnie... u r right my advice was ridiculous because of villain's stack size. If, however, we assume full stack-sizes from beginning of hand, I think the reraise to 9-fold to push line is best.
Yes you fold w a lot of money in the pot, but imo you are folding quite confident that you are beat as opposed to playing passively and bleeding till the river praying for a cheap showdown. This is maybe a hyper aggressive approach but I think it can be pretty effective in long run (unless u do it vs shorties like i donkishly initially suggested).
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 923
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i missed the stack size also. that changes the entire dynamic of course. With short stacks you just push em in.
I was not advocating playing passively, I was advocating to take the lead in the hand. Quite honestly, if the minraise isn't enough to take the lead, I don't think you have the best hand anyway.
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Setzy
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 399
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I'm gonna take a little different approach than the others on this hand, even though I already know the outcome and it may sound biased.
You raise to $1.50 preflop, a 6x raise. Let's go back and look at it again.
Preflop: Hero is CO with Q , A .
3 folds, MP1 (Villain)/ calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.5, 1 fold, SB calls $1.35, 1 fold, MP1 (Villain)/ raises to $2.75, Hero calls $1.25, SB calls $1.25.
He limp RERAISED! Toss your AQ offsuit. In $25NL, a limp re-raise is damn near a guaranteed KK/AA.
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Save your stories 'cuz they're all the same..
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KingLizard
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 296
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Setzy
He limp RERAISED! Toss your AQ offsuit. In $25NL, a limp re-raise is damn near a guaranteed KK/AA.
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Duly noted ... for next time.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Setzy
He limp RERAISED! Toss your AQ offsuit. In $25NL, a limp re-raise is damn near a guaranteed KK/AA.
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Heed this advice. Now if he *pushed* preflop it might have been a lower pocket pair that is not sure what to do or something (ironically), but a limp/raise that tries to keep you in the hand? AA/KK.
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Setzy
I'm gonna take a little different approach than the others on this hand, even though I already know the outcome and it may sound biased.
You raise to $1.50 preflop, a 6x raise. Let's go back and look at it again.
Preflop: Hero is CO with Q , A .
3 folds, MP1 (Villain)/ calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.5, 1 fold, SB calls $1.35, 1 fold, MP1 (Villain)/ raises to $2.75, Hero calls $1.25, SB calls $1.25.
He limp RERAISED! Toss your AQ offsuit. In $25NL, a limp re-raise is damn near a guaranteed KK/AA.
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I agree with this, I would typically ditch AQ to a reraise, from a limp-reraise I think it should be an automuck.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
my bad. wasn t aware of shorty's stack. I fold preflop or pay him off.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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push or fold preflop
mostly fold
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samsonite2100
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Your loosing, lolololololololololol
Posts: 858
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Quote:
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He limp RERAISED! Toss your AQ offsuit. In $25NL, a limp re-raise is damn near a guaranteed KK/AA.
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At 25NL you see people doing this kind of shit with lots worse hands than KK/AA.
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KingLizard
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 296
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by samsonite2100
Quote:
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He limp RERAISED! Toss your AQ offsuit. In $25NL, a limp re-raise is damn near a guaranteed KK/AA.
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At 25NL you see people doing this kind of shit with lots worse hands than KK/AA. |
This is where I tried to use the 'stats' he had (33 / 13). I would agree that had he been 33 / 2 I could have put him on the AA/KK. But his numbers suggested a much wider range to me. That was my thinking on this hand.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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prob fold preflop
otherwise make the flop 6-8ish folding to a push 3-bet
Miniraising here is dumb
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