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Lukie
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03-08-2006, 08:43 AM
Post subject: TPTK baby!
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
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NL100 full ring.
Lagg has $200.
Villain has $97.
I cover.
Villain is a solid winner in this game and someone whom I have a lot of history with. 20/11/1.6ish over many hands. He just lost some big pots, one to lagg and may be tilting. Probably not though. He thinks I'm weak/tight/predictable.
I open for 4x UTG with AKo. Villain calls CO. Lagg calls SB.
Flop A84, 2 spades. Ace is not a spade. I don't have any spades.
Pot is ~$12, I lead $8. Villain raises to $24. My line and plan for the rest of the hand if I'm not folding?
Results: I called flop, with the intention of bombing a safe turn. Turn 3s. I check/folded to his push.
Thoughts?
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
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U put him on a-x of spades or a set?
Would he push this without top 2 or a set?
Sounds like an easy fold.
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KY_Ace
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
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Your play is fine, don't lose $97 with TPTK when there's only $12 in the pot pre-flop. The pot is so small pre-flop that I wouldn't even pay this guy off without the flush coming. I don't like to risk more than 5x the pot with TPTK, the flush makes it an even easier fold. Unless there's a raise and a reraise, or one very big raise I don't like to play for stacks with less than 2 pair unless I have a read on the guy. If you think this guy is bullying you then your TPTK is OK if the turn is a brick, but the flush makes it a wise fold especially since you have no spades.
If this guy likes to push on the turn, just trap him with a big hand later, bet the flop, just call his raise then check the turn and let him push. This will make up for 4 or 5 small pots that he steals from you. It's OK to fold those small pots.
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bdawg56kg
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
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I think my standard line is to CR AI a blank turn. Is villian tilted enough to push you off an A-high flop after you raised UTG? Personally I don't think the flush card should scare you so much, and with the right read this could easily become a call.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
U put him on a-x of spades or a set?
Would he push this without top 2 or a set?
Sounds like an easy fold.
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This villain plays A8 to my UTG raise exactly 0% of the time. I doubt he plays AsQs, maybe AsKs.
At the time, my range for him was something like 88, 44, AK, 5s6s, 6s7s, 9sTs, TsJs: with AK and the suited connectors only being played some of the time preflop.
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If this guy likes to push on the turn, just trap him with a big hand later, bet the flop, just call his raise then check the turn and let him push. This will make up for 4 or 5 small pots that he steals from you. It's OK to fold those small pots.
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I think your advice in the paragraph above this one is solid, albeit a bit conservative, but how often do you think a situation like this comes up??? I played 3000 hands last night, maybe 400-500 with this villain, and this is the only major pot I played with him... 
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I think my standard line is to CR AI a blank turn. Is villian tilted enough to push you off an A-high flop after you raised UTG? Personally I don't think the flush card should scare you so much, and with the right read this could easily become a call.
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The flush card certainly matters, because it basically seals my fate... the only thing I now beat is a bluff. All flop semi-bluffs now have me dead.
My plan was to either lead strong on the turn or c/r allin, with emphasis on the latter, but ONLY on a safe turn. Villain in this hand was Fnord btw. I'm kinda torn on this because he's seen me stack off with TPTK before at 100bb deep, but I think that he thinks he can push me off AK here. I think he puts me on a range of something like TT-AA, AQs+, AKo preflop or something similar. AK plays pretty terribly to that range so I think he dumps that more often then not preflop. If he had a spaded suited connector post-flop his play would be great, but I don't know if he's calling my UTG raise first in with those. In hindsight, I think he has 44/88 a very good portion of the time and the 3rd spade saved my ass.
edit: ugh, meant to say emphasis on the former, meaning leading the turn favored over c/r...
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bdawg56kg
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Pfft. Now that I know this was against Fnord, insta-call! J/k
I was in a rush earlier and didn't read the hand closely enough, but I really think A  x is a big concern, or a hand like 6 7 . I like the way you played it though, and I think you made a +EV laydown.
Lukie, how does your flop + turn line change if you have A K ? A  K ? A K ?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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When Lukie calls the $24 he has exactly AK/AA here. When he tanks on the turn he has exactly AK.
My hole cards cost $60 minus your equity in the pot to see. You declined. Something to ponder, if i had the flush and put you on AKo, why wouldn't I give you a shot at your favorite turn c/r line? I believe that's how you stacked off against me last time...
The big pot in question was a real pain in ass. About 200bb deep.
I raise KQo LP, might have been a limper, Loose player calls from BB, limper (if there was one, this is from memory) folds.
Flop is J-T-rag rainbow. Up until then I had just seen Loose make a lot of calls, so when it was checked to me I 2/3 pot it for something like $8. Loose raises to $30. I cry really loud, think about pushing, look at stacks and call.
Turn is K, now life just sucks. Loose under-bets for $45 and with another $100ish behind I can't imagine folding here between my chances of sucking out and checking this behind on the river.
River blanks, Loose pushes and I fold. I think I'm good or split here here sometimes, but not often enough. Actually, I think he has KQ here a lot. JT, KJ, Q9 and sets (duh) also fit although I wasn't sure if he was a fast play kind of guy. My impression was he was weak on the flop and the turn helped him.
Fucking deep money.
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bdawg56kg
I think my standard line is to CR AI a blank turn.
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That line loses the most and wins the least against me.
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Originally Posted by bdawg56kg
Is villian tilted enough to push you off an A-high flop after you raised UTG?
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How often does Lukie have Ax after raising UTG? How often does he have the balls to stack off with it? If I did this reguardless of my hole cards, 10% or so of the time I played a hand against Lukie, my bluff equity alone might make it +EV.
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Originally Posted by bdawg56kg
I think you made a +EV laydown.
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LMAO. How can folding ever be +EV? Folding any hand at any point reguardless of the situation always has the same expectation.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bdawg56kg
Pfft. Now that I know this was against Fnord, insta-call! J/k
I was in a rush earlier and didn't read the hand closely enough, but I really think A x is a big concern, or a hand like 6 7 . I like the way you played it though, and I think you made a +EV laydown.
Lukie, how does your flop + turn line change if you have A K ? A K ? A K ? |
I really don't even think he plays AQs here against me (I certainly wouldn't), so I'm not overly concerned about Asxs, like I said though, maybe AKs.
If I have AsKs, I stick the rest in on the flop.
Other two pretty much play the same here IMO, and I probably take the same flop line of calling and playing some pokah on the turn. Turn really sucks here then. If I get it in when I'm beat, it's a terrible mistake. Check/folding the worst hand here is not a mistake. I don't know what I'd do, i'll think about it.
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Fnord
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If my range here is a set or 2 spades (given that I don't play any two suited and might not even call the raise with a suited connector), why even call the flop raise? What if I'm on air 20% of the time and follow through with my stack?
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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When Lukie calls the $24 he has exactly AK/AA here. When he tanks on the turn he has exactly AK.
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Not true. I have 88 some of the time here. 
Fnord- I have a question. This is something I've picked up on about myself that is quite worrisome. When I'm faced with an easy decision ie fold, push, raise, etc., I do it pretty quickly. I play too many tables as it is and I want to get things done rapidly when I know what to do in a certain situation. It's the close decisions that I tend to take a long time on, use the time button, etc. This would be a good example. My question is.. have you picked up on this? I am pretty confident you have, and if that's the case, how much does it help you putting me on a hand? The fact that you were done betting here is pretty much irrelavent to you, if you can put me on exactly AK here on the turn based on my actions (betting and 'reads'), that is very bothersome to me.
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My hold cards cost $60 minus your equity in the pot to see. You declined. Something to ponder, if i had the flush and put you on AKo, why wouldn't I give you a shot at your favorite turn c/r line? I beleive that's how you stacked off against me last time...
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can you explain the first part of this to me?
Also, this has nothing to do with what was said in this thread, but I was really considering just leading the turn, and stack sizes dictate that would probably be a push.
Also, in that big pot, I put you on exactly KQ there. And deep money rocks. It's just that hands like KQo have no value. You were crushed there btw.
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Also, in that big pot, I put you on exactly KQ there. And deep money rocks. It's just that hands like KQo have no value. You were crushed there btw.
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Think I should have dumped it on the flop? Disagree about KQo having no value there. A short stack was in the pot between position and on pair value KQ is a great spot vs him. As for the deep, loose player, he had prior to that shown no inclination to play big pots and I had every reason to believe I could showdown a pair against him at a reasonable price.
BTW, maybe Fnord flipped 2 coins...
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=30048
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Not true. I have 88 some of the time here. |
If your UTG raise range is AQ+/88+/KQs(?) then I really like my flop line.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
If my range here is a set or 2 spades (given that I don't play any two suited and might not even call the raise with a suited connector), why even call the flop raise? What if I'm on air 20% of the time and follow through with my stack?
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How often does Lukie have Ax after raising UTG? How often does he have the balls to stack off with it? If I did this reguardless of my hole cards, 10% or so of the time I played a hand against Lukie, my bluff equity alone might make it +EV.
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Being out of position against a thinking player just sucks.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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If your UTG raise range is AQ+/88+/KQs(?) then I really like my flop line.
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Do you really think I'm raising 6% of my hands UTG?, and that range doesn't even include AJs...
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Do you really think I'm raising 6% of my hands UTG?
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Oh yeah, you're an open-limp kinda guy... hmmm...
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Do you really think I'm raising 6% of my hands UTG?
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Oh yeah, you're an open-limp kinda guy... hmmm... |
Nah, I'm just not as strict about not doing it as you are. On tough tables it may be a glaring leak, but at NL100, open-limping certain situations definately has its merits.
I am certainly aware that air is a small part of your range here, but the risk/reward ratio of that here is pretty poor given preflop and flop play IMO.
Meh, I don't know what to think about this hand anymore. I like the way it was played from my end. How to play it on a safe turn is very debatable.
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Fnord- I have a question. This is something I've picked up on about myself that is quite worrisome. When I'm faced with an easy decision ie fold, push, raise, etc., I do it pretty quickly.
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Soupie is the master at this. For what it's worth, I wasn't 100% sure you had AK until all of the money was in. At that point, I just just cheering for you to make the decision that was in my best interest. You might have been good there.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
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My hold cards cost $60 minus your equity in the pot to see. You declined. Something to ponder, if i had the flush and put you on AKo, why wouldn't I give you a shot at your favorite turn c/r line? I beleive that's how you stacked off against me last time...
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can you explain the first part of this to me? |
What do you think the EV of calling is? At worst it costs you $60 (drawing dead to a set/flush.) I might consider trading hole card information as we did in the past, but it's so easy to put you on AK given the action that I'm not so inclined in this case.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Disagree about KQo having no value there
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sry, wasn't talking about the actual hand we were discussing. Just that it just sucks with very deep money.
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Meh, I don't know what to think about this hand anymore. I like the way it was played from my end.
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The interesting question is if it's correct to call the flop and continue on a non-spade turn. One of the things I've been thinking about a lot are "go a yard, but not a mile" sorts of lines against aggression.
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Originally Posted by Lukie
How to play it on a safe turn is very debatable.
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Check/raising is a distaster against me. I know better than to re-open the action if I'm drawing live against AK. Particularly with your love-affair with the stack-a-donk style lines.
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
sry, wasn't talking about the actual hand we were discussing. Just that it just sucks with very deep money.
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Wasn't looking to play a big pot in that spot. I check that flop behind if I thought he was going to make my life difficult.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Think I should have dumped it on the flop?
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if your description of the hand is accurate in this thread, yes.
pot 12, u bet 8, he c/r to 30. 22 into 50 with oesd here where you are 6:1 against hitting the turn? no thx. Not when you are going to be looking at another barrell on the turn.
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
pot 12, u bet 8, he c/r to 30. 22 into 50 with oesd here where you are 6:1 against hitting the turn? no thx. Not when you are going to be looking at another barrell on the turn.
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With a buck fifty behind against a loose player? I'm not sure what his turn line is if I hit a King...
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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The interesting question is if it's correct to call the flop and continue on a non-spade turn. One of the things I've been thinking about a lot are "go a yard, but not a mile" sorts of lines against aggression.
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The thing is, as you have implied in this thread, if there isn't a very big threat of me playing a big pot with AK here, this is so easily exploitable by aware players. I mean, if I can only play a big pot here with the 3 combos of AA, there's a problem. If somebody holds Ax, that's down to 1 combo. Admittingly, I have said I could have 88 here, but it's rare that I'll raise that from UTG. Sometimes though, depending on the table.
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Check/raising is a distaster against me. I know better than to re-open the action if I'm drawing live against AK. Particularly with your love-affair with the stack-a-donk style lines
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Yeah, trying to c/r here is especially a disaster b/c I have c/r'd so many turns when I've played with you. If you are value betting a set, and taking your free card after a flop semi-bluff.............
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
pot 12, u bet 8, he c/r to 30. 22 into 50 with oesd here where you are 6:1 against hitting the turn? no thx. Not when you are going to be looking at another barrell on the turn.
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With a buck fifty behind against a loose player? I'm not sure what his turn line is if I hit a King... |
I dunno. I don't think you had the implied odds that you think you did. He had a very high vpip number but based on what I had seen with him on multiple tables he seemed to play very well post-flop.
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
The thing is, as you have implied in this thread, if there isn't a very big threat of me playing a big pot with AK here
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I think the threat is artificially high because you know who I am and a lot about what I think of this game. Yet another reason I'm packing up and moving pretty soon.
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
He had a very high vpip number but based on what I had seen with him on multiple tables he seemed to play very well post-flop.
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I didn't have this information. If I knew he was multi-tabling that alone might tip my line or had me finding a new seat/table. Then again, I was blowing a lot of reads last night...
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Soupie is the master at this. For what it's worth, I wasn't 100% sure you had AK until all of the money was in. At that point, I just just cheering for you to make the decision that was in my best interest. You might have been good there.
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Soupie is the master at what.. picking up on those kind of tells?
I'm aware that I may very well be ahead here, but I can only beat a bluff, and I don't think Fnord bluffs 8-tabling nit's UTG raise for his stack on an A high flop when nit is showing resistance 1 out of 3 times here. Also note that my equity is 0 against Fnord's made hand range here, while Fnord could have a lot of outs even if he has badly missed the board so far.
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What do you think the EV of calling is? At worst it costs you $60 (drawing dead to a set/flush.) I might consider trading hole card information as we did in the past, but it's so easy to put you on AK given the action that I'm not so inclined in this case.
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Up to you. I'd like to know but it is entirely up to you to do as you'd like. Just realize that it's rare for me to tell others what I have in big pots...
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
The thing is, as you have implied in this thread, if there isn't a very big threat of me playing a big pot with AK here
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I think the threat is artificially high because you know who I am and a lot about what I think of this game. Yet another reason I'm packing up and moving pretty soon. |
I assume this to mean that you are going to either
a) play a new site
or
b) continue to play ps with a different sn
correct?
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Soupie is the master at what.. picking up on those kind of tells?
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Not giving tells.
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bdawg56kg
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03-10-2006, 12:55 AM
Post subject: Re: TPTK baby!
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#30 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 1,201
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
He just lost some big pots, one to lagg and may be tilting. Probably not though.
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Fnord, honest question. With all the experience you have, do you still tilt?
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Fnord
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03-10-2006, 04:00 AM
Post subject: Re: TPTK baby!
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#31 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bdawg56kg
Fnord, honest question. With all the experience you have, do you still tilt?
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Yup, although I'm pretty good at picking up on it before I drop a whole lot of money and keep getting better everytime it happens. I was still in a pretty good mental state when I played this hand, but tipping a little towards the LAggy side. Then again I make some boneheaded plays when I'm running well sometimes too.... meh...
My competitive drive makes it more difficult to quit when down on a session, although after a couple beatings I usually leave if I'm getting the worst of it due to a bad seat/table.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
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3 bet top pair!
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
3 bet top pair!
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Might have even been the best hand...
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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Fnord - I think you mentioned the think tank issue (and Soupie's advice) previously but I cannot find it. Can you repost? I think it was something like use 15 seconds for any non-trivial decision - no more no less.
I noticed I had a think tank tell that I'm not sure if my opps picked up on (probably not). I caught myself rythm betting when on a draw or missing a flop. The table would beep and then I would take almost the same exact time (two more beats) and check or call. It became obvious to me. I think the notion of keeping your bets the same could be applied to think tank time. It's just a little tougher when multi-tabling. I'm trying to pick up if other players have the think tank tell going forward.
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Lipkin
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Join Date: Oct 2005
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Me talk pretty one day.
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