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bbqsquirrel
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10-12-2007, 08:22 PM
Post subject: TP sucks (semi theory post)
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 260
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I have played quite a bit of FR in the past 2 weeks -- 20k hands @ Stars 100NL for a net win of 3.9k (9.59 PTBB/100). I think it's a combination of me running good, plus an adjustment that I have made -- underplaying AK/AQ/AJ
My AKs and AK are running well -- 3+ PTBB/100 for AKs, slightly smaller for AK. My biggest loss with AKs is only $16.
w/ AK and AQ in bad position I often just limp into the pot. AJ I fold unless I'm in LP, and I won't raise limpers with that. Coz these hands are subjected to heavy reverse implied odds.
The only times that these hands (esp. unsuited) will win anything moderate is when
1) you flop a pair and outkick your opponent
2) your opponent bluffs you
Playing TP OOP without a read is just asking for trouble. Say you open raise AQ/AJ in LP against unknowns, got a caller or 2, IP or OOP. You flop TP, c-bet, opponent(s) fold. Or you miss, c-bet and opponents fold, Or you miss but get both to fold after 2 barrels. Great, you won the pot. But you would have won the pot with any two cards.
On the other hand say you flop TPGK+ OOP
1) on a non-drawy board, and your non-fish opponent calls. This is probably the best situation -- you're WA or WB. You can try to take a pot-control line. Notice if your TP is Aces you'll have to worry about Aces up. Now assume opponent raises you instead. If you a) call your hand is obvious as hell, and you'll get bluffed out or get value-bet to death. If you b) reraise you 'll fold out the bluffs and the outkicked pairs, but that's essentially making bets that only better hands will call. But at least that gives you information. Either way it's not good.
2) the board is drawy, and non-fish opponent doesn't fold. You're in deeper trouble. Opponent can take multiple lines:
a) raise flop and take their free turn card
b) raise flop and bet/raise turn
c) call flop and bet/raise most turns
and he can take these lines with all kinds of hands: set/2 pairs, outkicked TP, strong/weak draws, total air
In case a) you gave opponent good odds to draw, and in b) and c) you will be subjected to multiple difficult decisions, often a huge river bet. Even outkicked pairs can represent something else and push you off the pot.
In conclusion, with TP against unknowns you need a lot of betting room for information. So don't take away that option by raising PF. And if TP gets called down twice unimproved it usually only beats a bluff.
Agree/disagree?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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if you develop an aggressive image, top pair becomes a very profitable hand
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
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TP is rough for me too... especially out of pos against a LAG. I'm more prone to walk away from a pot I can't control beyond the flop w/ only TPG(T)K if opp keeps showing aggression (or calling down...) There are just better spots for my money.
I also won't PFR in LP w/ AQo or AJo or KQo against 4+ limpers that are likely to call me down. I find this just usually gets me into a big pot, MW, with TP scenario that's too easily dominated and no ability to control the pot 'cause I'm not going to donk away the big lead outs that would be required to test the villains.
The toughest spot for me is owning TP OOP (even AA-KK) pre-flop, getting a low board like (3d5h8c), and having villain show aggression. On one hand, I've seen way to many opps do this with an over pair (99+) or broadway OCs. So not sure I wanna fold... And then also have gotten basically sucked out holding a strong over pair by someone sitting on a flopped set.
I spose just one of my many leaks... 
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XTR1000
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
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Agree with Renton.
As long you have ppl behind u, who will play AQ/AJ/KQ against your AK, its profitable to raise from ep. Another point u need to consider: When you´re that tight in ep, you´re QQ+ raises turn your cards actually face up, making it highly exploitable to call u in ep with any pp/sc hand. AK/AQ is crucial to balance your raising range in ep. A good chunk of AK value is prf FE.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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yo
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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A lot of speculation and misreading into oppositions' skill.
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Pants_101
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Nottingham UK
Posts: 442
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I think a lot of the problem with TP is the stack sizes - most sites offer 100BB buyin and a "standard raise" of 3 or 4 BB tends to create stack to pot ratios around 10-13 which are bad for top pair hands (because of the all in threat). You can try to get more money in pf to get the ratios down to 3-8 where it's profitable to get all in against average - loose players. This tends to be impossible unless against a half stack. Or you put less money in pf, get a ratio around 20 which gives you room to manoeuvre. Or buy in for 50BB yourself which makes it easier to get a favourable ratio against any stack size. Currently I'm trying to play less OOP, size my raises to get a favourable ratio against any short stacks who might play or else raise very small, and exercise pot control by checking the flop or the turn depending.
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Must get more aggressive - Tonight we dine in $25NL! rah rah rah! etc
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archangel95
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 55
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
if you develop an aggressive image, top pair becomes a very profitable hand
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How do you develop an aggressive image without spewing?
First post here. I have about 1700 on 2+2,
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by archangel95
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
if you develop an aggressive image, top pair becomes a very profitable hand
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How do you develop an aggressive image without spewing?
First post here. I have about 1700 on 2+2, |
more two barrels, a few lighter raises in position etc.
SHwoing down a few weaker hands played aggressivly does lots to the table thinking were an aggro spewmonkey.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,334
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Top pair is hard
Play short
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archangel95
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 55
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
Quote:
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Originally Posted by archangel95
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
if you develop an aggressive image, top pair becomes a very profitable hand
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How do you develop an aggressive image without spewing?
First post here. I have about 1700 on 2+2, |
more two barrels, a few lighter raises in position etc.
SHwoing down a few weaker hands played aggressivly does lots to the table thinking were an aggro spewmonkey. |
I do these things, but it seems that I am still always beat when I call this all in.
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bbqsquirrel
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 260
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by archangel95
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
if you develop an aggressive image, top pair becomes a very profitable hand
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How do you develop an aggressive image without spewing? |
Tried it last night, didn't work
Lowered my VPIP by like 2.5, raised >1/2 of my hands preflop
c-bet got called, double-barrel got min-c/raised, pukefold
also triple-barrel (AI) a couple times, unimproved underpairs got called by second pairs, A-high called down by unimproved PP
Puke puke puke
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Turska
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 254
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TP sucks thats for sure. When I discovered that fact I instantly
turned my game from -EV to +EV. (I play only Full ring).
TP is good PF, after flop but later streets you need strong reads
to win with it.
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archangel95
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10-18-2007, 12:24 PM
Post subject: Re: Agree
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#13 (permalink)
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 55
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Turska
TP sucks thats for sure. When I discovered that fact I instantly
turned my game from -EV to +EV. (I play only Full ring).
TP is good PF, after flop but later streets you need strong reads
to win with it.
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I read the convo that Renton posted in the sticky last night and I think if we tried 3 betting more with his guidelines, top pair would be extremely valuable. I'm gonna try it.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by archangel95
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
if you develop an aggressive image, top pair becomes a very profitable hand
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How do you develop an aggressive image without spewing?
First post here. I have about 1700 on 2+2, |
basically, raise a wide range preflop and make a lot of thin bets postflop.
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