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Sprayed
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01-02-2009, 02:17 AM
Post subject: Tournaments to Cash
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: GO BUCKS!
Posts: 3,057
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I'm trying to make the transition from tournaments to cash and I am having a tough run of it so far (down $460 after 50k hands). I believe that I am over valuing TP and over pairs but I'm not sure. My numbers at FR are:
VPIP% 15.5, PFR% 11, 3Bet% 3.4, WTSD% 24.1, W$SD% 49.2, Agg 3.57, Agg% 31.4 after 50000+ hands.
How do these look?
I will post some hands, but in the meantime, what are the typical problems that most tourney donks encounter when they make the transition to cash? My first guess from reviewing my HHs is that I'm overplaying hands that in a tourney are normally decent hands to get your chips in with due to shallower stacks.
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,233
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I'm a similar donk although I'm a lot looser preflop than you (also much looser than in tourneys) and I've been talking to a lot of good cash game players who tell me things that are just crazy to do in tournaments, like they're checking back with KK 100 BBs deep on the turn when they get called on the flop and are 60% against their range.
Whereas in most tourneys you're 30BBs deep or something and go "OMG I has overpair, all-in!"
Also obvious things like widen your range from CO/BB to play all kinds of hands that play well in multiway pots when there are limpers; i.e., 30 BBs deep I'm folding J9s on the button with three limpers in but I'd call always 100 BBs deep.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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PF looks fine/perfect/whatevs
you definitely suck on the turn and river, I mean, I haven't seen any HH's or anything, but I'm certain you suck on the turn and river.
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,233
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I never realized you're supposed to do anything on the turn and river other than curse when the damn A falls.
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Sprayed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: GO BUCKS!
Posts: 3,057
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lol, yeah, I get called on the flop and I'm like what do I do now on the turn and river. Not sure when to semi bluff or whether to donk bet TPWK or draw when in the blinds or oop. Preflop is a breeze, post flop is where I need work. I understand to a certain extent that some flops hit my opponent's range and I should not c-bet. But, when to specifically semi bluff like check raising or just leading out is when I get confused. In a tournament it is a lot easier because I can just get it in.
I just played 1800 hands of 50NL and was -$60, which is actually a lot better than my play in Dec. I focused on not spewing with over pairs and TP's. I went for pot control with these hands unless I was against a lagtard. Most of the 50NL regs are nits like me and I was stacking off to them with TPTK.
My biggest loss tonight was a set over set hand which I lost $51. My second biggest loss was KK on a 465 board against a short stack for $22. He had a set obv. I also lost $17 to a shorty when he shoved from the sb over my button raise when I had TT. He had AA. The rest are c-bets gone wrong.
Small sample, however, I felt more in control. I just need to work on my post flop skills. Should I be semi bluffing draws if I have at least 4 or 8 cards to come? What about donking out from the blinds when I have TPWK or a draw into 2-3 players?
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,233
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I'm curious if you're mixing it up with any 6-max as well, because I bet you would do better at 6-max. In FR you're probably only making money off the lagtards and are stacking off lighter than the other nits.
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Sprayed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: GO BUCKS!
Posts: 3,057
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I can't multi 6 max as well as I can FR. I only have a few hours each day to devote to the game and that is why I am trying to learn cash. If I reduced the tables and played 6 max, would I still get the same amount of hands in? I'm assuming yes because of being short handed.
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,233
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I dunno but it'd probably be more profitable for you....there are a lot more lagtards and people stack off lighter (at least at NL50/100).
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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you probably could benefit from a primer of like 2-4 hours of coaching
your stats seems satisfactory, you probably are just messing up postflop
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Parasurama
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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Probably you've memorized how to play preflop and on the flop but aren't thinking enough about opponent's ranges to play well on the turn and river. In tournaments turn and river decisions (all your decisions actually, but moreso on the turn and river) are made easier by the fact that you're probably committed if you get that far unless you're very deep and against a very deep opponent (unlikely in online tournaments).
Some things to think about to incorporate into your game:
-position, position, position: you have to know which players you can isolate and c-bet profitably against in position, what hands you can play in which positions, and you have to always remember position when constructing ranges
-pot control: my winrate improved drastically when I started checking more often with TPGK type hands. Not only can you value-bet thinner on the river and get called by worse, you can also look up river bets lighter when you check the flop or the turn.
-set-mining: in tournaments after the first hour it becomes a mistake to play small pocket pairs unless you're short or opening in late position, in small stakes full ring they're a goldmine.
Clearly this is not a complete list but it's just off the top of my head the issues I can think of when switching from tournaments to cash. Also, what stakes are you playing?
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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When I transitioned from SnGs to full ring, it took me a while to work out what was going on.
Then I realised that most of the nitty regs were never ever bluffing multiple streets and their value range is pretty easy to work out. Don't worry about making exploitable folds with the top of your range because the nits aren't going to exploit you and they probs have the nuts. Because they rarely have bluffs in their range, it should be just a case of compare their value range to your hand and see where you stand.
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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Sprayed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: GO BUCKS!
Posts: 3,057
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
you probably could benefit from a primer of like 2-4 hours of coaching
your stats seems satisfactory, you probably are just messing up postflop
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Yes, this is definitely what I need. I have watched some of the cash videos at CR. I guess that it just hasn't sunk in.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Parasurama
Also, what stakes are you playing?
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50NL
Quote:
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Originally Posted by badgers
When I transitioned from SnGs to full ring, it took me a while to work out what was going on.
Then I realised that most of the nitty regs were never ever bluffing multiple streets and their value range is pretty easy to work out. Don't worry about making exploitable folds with the top of your range because the nits aren't going to exploit you and they probs have the nuts. Because they rarely have bluffs in their range, it should be just a case of compare their value range to your hand and see where you stand.
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I found this out the hard way several times. Folding QQ+ on a low flop to crazy aggression from nit is standard now.
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